quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet

quote:

This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX

Describing Gomer

na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31

Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?

And the Greek LXX translation was 'porniea' i.e. the same word used in Mt. 19 that is translated fornication.

How come no one translate it like you do? Can you post links to this translation pls?

Will start with the objective and undisputable parts first. Here is the text from the LXX and the text from Matthew.

êñίèçôå ðñὸò ôὴí ìçôέñá ὑìῶí êñίèçôå ὅôé áὐôὴ ïὐ ãõíή ìïõ êáὶ ἐãὼ ïὐê ἀíὴñ áὐôῆò êáὶ ἐîáñῶ ôὴí ðïñíåίáí áὐôῆò ἐê ðñïóώðïõ ìïõ êáὶ ôὴí ìïé÷åίáí áὐôῆò ἐê ìέóïõ ìáóôῶí áὐôῆò ὅðùò ἂí ἐêäύóù áὐôὴí ãõìíὴí êáὶ ἀðïêáôáóôήóù áὐôὴí êáèὼò ἡìέñᾳ ãåíέóåùò áὐôῆò êáὶ èήóïìáé áὐôὴí ὡò ἔñçìïí êáὶ ôάîù áὐôὴí ὡò ãῆí ἄíõäñïí êáὶ ἀðïêôåíῶ áὐôὴí ἐí äίøåé êáὶ ôὰ ôέêíá áὐôῆò ïὐ ìὴ ἐëåήóù ὅôé ôέêíá ðïñíåίáò ἐóôίí (Hos 2:4-6 LXX)

ëέãù äὲ ὑìῖí ὅôé ὃò ἂí ἀðïëύóῃ ôὴí ãõíáῖêá áὐôïῦ ìὴ ἐðὶ ðïñíåίᾳ êáὶ ãáìήóῃ ἄëëçí ìïé÷ᾶôáé. (Mat 19:9 BGT)

Ok Thanks.

So for scriptures to be consistent and for the Lord not be contradictory, He is only explaning what Moses did, which is Not God's will. He sets the theology in the first part of two becoming one. Then he explains what Moses did.

quote:

19:3 Then some Pharisees 3 came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful 4 to divorce a wife for any cause?” 5 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 19:7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 19:8 Jesus 9 said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, 10 but from the beginning it was not this way. 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”

SO, in conclusion based on this one verse(no other gospels has this)and porniea to include adultery, i would speculate that since the readers are jews,

a) anyone who commits adultery is put to death anyway. Dead dont remarry. So they are out of the picture!

b) leaves those who fornicate, who are not married yet, maybe bethroth. They can be 'divorced'.

There are two big problems with this theory:

1) In the first century, it was very uncommon for anyone to be put to death for adultery.

2) The OT Law required a woman to be put to death for sexual infidelity while betrothed (Deut. 22:23-24) just like it did for sexual infidelity after the marriage took place, so NO the Jewish people would have no reason to exclude the latter understanding when they heard Jesus words.

Like it or not, 'porniea' was used to describe sexual infidelity of many kinds inside and outside of marriage, and there is nothing in the context of Jesus' words that would cause one to conclude that he was referring to sexual infidelity outside of marriage. This is another area where those teaching this new perspective on MDR are in disagreement with the early church; the early church did not support this "betrothal" perspective. This simply an invention of those who do not want to acknowledge the exception Jesus gave us.

quote:

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet
BUT on the 3rd point, i do not believe Jesus gave the exception. Hes explaining Moses instructions.
Otherwise Hes contradicting His own will in

quote:

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet
BUT on the 3rd point, i do not believe Jesus gave the exception. Hes explaining Moses instructions.
Otherwise Hes contradicting His own will in

quote:

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

How do you manage to read "No one is able in any way to separate" from Jesus statement "let no one separate"?

That is like placing a "Do not Enter" sign on a door in an airport and then believing that the sign makes it impossible for anyone to ever enter through that door. While violating the instructions on that sign could lead to sever consequences or even jail in some circumstances, the sign does not make it impossible for someone to enter through that door.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

If Jesus was refering to Deut 24, the word used is `ervah

nakedness, nudity, shame, pudenda
pudenda (implying shameful exposure)
nakedness of a thing, indecency, improper behaviour
exposed, undefended

Is there anything about fornication?

Actually, the word is the construct 'ervat' and it does not stand alone, it is part of an idiomatic phrase i.e. 'ervat devar' and yes, it does have very strong implications of sexual infidelity.

quote:


why is He using TWO different words, porniea and moicheuo which has distinct meanings?

Because the first term 'porniea' is a broader term that includes many different kinds of sexual infidelity i.e. incest, prostitution, etc... moicheuo refers to a much more specific type of sexual infidelity.

quote:


Porniea can only be commited IF you are Not married whereas moicheuo is commited when you are Married.

This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

How do you manage to read "No one is able in any way to separate" from Jesus statement "let no one separate"?

That is like placing a "Do not Enter" sign on a door in an airport and then believing that the sign makes it impossible for anyone to ever enter through that door. While violating the instructions on that sign could lead to sever consequences or even jail in some circumstances, the sign does not make it impossible for someone to enter through that door.

quote:

ORIGINAL: benelchi

quote:

ORIGINAL: prophet
BUT on the 3rd point, i do not believe Jesus gave the exception. Hes explaining Moses instructions.
Otherwise Hes contradicting His own will in

quote:

“Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

How do you manage to read "No one is able in any way to separate" from Jesus statement "let no one separate"?

That is like placing a "Do not Enter" sign on a door in an airport and then believing that the sign makes it impossible for anyone to ever enter through that door. While violating the instructions on that sign could lead to sever consequences or even jail in some circumstances, the sign does not make it impossible for someone to enter through that door.

quote:

ORIGINAL: the_mom

I have a hypothetical for this thread:

Couple is married for many years. They have some kids. Husband acquires a girlfriend and has an affair that lasts several years. Wife finally finds out about the affair, and she also learns that he has spent a significant portion of the marital income supporting the girlfriend.

Before wife learned of the affair, husband had no intention of ending it. In fact, now that wife knows, he still has no intention of ending it. It was his plan to continue his double life until the youngest child turned 18 so he would not have to pay child support. He also confessed to wife that he needed her income to support girlfriend.

Wife insists that husband choose between wife and girlfriend, and he chooses girlfriend. However, he informs wife that he has no real inclination to get a divorce. If that's what she wants, she has to do it, because he believes in family values and is against divorce for any reason.

Wife sincerely feels like she will be an active participant in adultery if she doesn't divorce husband. Even legal separation feels to her like she is participating in and condoning adultery. She also feels that she will have little credibility with her kids when speaking to them of moral issues if she continues to stay married under these circumstances. There is a commandment right on point, and yet, their family seems to openly flaunt it. The kids know all about the affair. Besides, what are the kids learning about the consequences of sin? What are the kids learning about how marriages are supposed to work?

Does the wife have a biblical reason for divorce?

Thanks for your thoughts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: the_mom

I have a hypothetical for this thread:

Couple is married for many years. They have some kids. Husband acquires a girlfriend and has an affair that lasts several years. Wife finally finds out about the affair, and she also learns that he has spent a significant portion of the marital income supporting the girlfriend.

Before wife learned of the affair, husband had no intention of ending it. In fact, now that wife knows, he still has no intention of ending it. It was his plan to continue his double life until the youngest child turned 18 so he would not have to pay child support. He also confessed to wife that he needed her income to support girlfriend.

Wife insists that husband choose between wife and girlfriend, and he chooses girlfriend. However, he informs wife that he has no real inclination to get a divorce. If that's what she wants, she has to do it, because he believes in family values and is against divorce for any reason.

Wife sincerely feels like she will be an active participant in adultery if she doesn't divorce husband. Even legal separation feels to her like she is participating in and condoning adultery. She also feels that she will have little credibility with her kids when speaking to them of moral issues if she continues to stay married under these circumstances. There is a commandment right on point, and yet, their family seems to openly flaunt it. The kids know all about the affair. Besides, what are the kids learning about the consequences of sin? What are the kids learning about how marriages are supposed to work?

Does the wife have a biblical reason for divorce?

Thanks for your thoughts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: the_mom

I have a hypothetical for this thread:

Couple is married for many years. They have some kids. Husband acquires a girlfriend and has an affair that lasts several years. Wife finally finds out about the affair, and she also learns that he has spent a significant portion of the marital income supporting the girlfriend.

Before wife learned of the affair, husband had no intention of ending it. In fact, now that wife knows, he still has no intention of ending it. It was his plan to continue his double life until the youngest child turned 18 so he would not have to pay child support. He also confessed to wife that he needed her income to support girlfriend.

Wife insists that husband choose between wife and girlfriend, and he chooses girlfriend. However, he informs wife that he has no real inclination to get a divorce. If that's what she wants, she has to do it, because he believes in family values and is against divorce for any reason.

Wife sincerely feels like she will be an active participant in adultery if she doesn't divorce husband. Even legal separation feels to her like she is participating in and condoning adultery. She also feels that she will have little credibility with her kids when speaking to them of moral issues if she continues to stay married under these circumstances. There is a commandment right on point, and yet, their family seems to openly flaunt it. The kids know all about the affair. Besides, what are the kids learning about the consequences of sin? What are the kids learning about how marriages are supposed to work?

Does the wife have a biblical reason for divorce?

Thanks for your thoughts.



Yes, there are biblical grounds for divorce; however, I would encourage someone in this circumstance to continue to pursue reconciliation even if they ultimately chose divorce. I would also encourage a legal separation rather than divorce if the laws of their state gave them the same financial protection as a divorce would i.e. the purpose of a legal separation or divorce would hopefully be to encourage this spouse to truly repent. However, in the end, we must remember that we are only responsible for our own actions and we can do nothing to make a wayward spouse repent.

quote:

Yes. Adultery is biblical grounds for divorce.

quote:

How should this woman be counseled then?

Is it acceptable to obtain a legal separation, which ends the marriage in every way, except the final divorce decree? That seems to me to put form over substance.

quote:

ORIGINAL: keepingfaith

quote:

How should this woman be counseled then?

Is it acceptable to obtain a legal separation, which ends the marriage in every way, except the final divorce decree? That seems to me to put form over substance.

Please reread my post a few more times (specifically focus on the scriptures, not my words). A separation does not end a marriage, neither does divorce...only death does (Rom 7, 1cor7:39)

I would tell her not to take the counsel of strangers on a forum. I only point others to the counsel of the Lord. I believe Jesus and Paul have already spoken and given their counsel.

I know many faithful obedient spouses standing in faith in the midst of their spouse’s treachery. Even in the midst of their spouse entering an adulterous affair under the guise of remarriage, sometimes where the wayward spouse is taking care of another family that is not even theirs while their own flesh and blood suffers. The faithful spouse's reflection of God’s love and unconditional forgiveness could be the very thing that saves the wayward spouse, their children, and leads others to Christ.

I would tell her that God’s grace is sufficient and He will take care of her during this time. And that with God all things are possible, so there is always HOPE, and not to give up. Scripture tells us we will suffer and sacrifice for the sake of the Gospel, but I believe whatever we go through will be worth it and God will use it for our good.

God has restored many marriages that most would have written off as unredeemable. Nothing is too hard for God. This should not be looked at as a hopeless situation, it should be looked at as an opportunity to glorify God and have an amazing testimony that will be a witness for Christ one day.

quote:

Yet, if she reached out to some on this thread, the response to her pain would be a speech, like the one above, the point of which is that if she prays hard and is really lucky and waits long enough, her husband might come back to her. That's the hope you can offer her? A speech.

Anyway, you never answered my question: if he comes back because he has run out of money and needs to take his anger out on someone, does she have to take him back? No doubt he would be sorry he doesn't have access to her bank account anymore, and he would regret leaving someone who didn't call the police when he hit her. Is that repentance enough? And would she have to submit to him?

quote:

ORIGINAL: the_mom

I have a hypothetical for this thread:

Couple is married for many years. They have some kids. Husband acquires a girlfriend and has an affair that lasts several years. Wife finally finds out about the affair, and she also learns that he has spent a significant portion of the marital income supporting the girlfriend.

Before wife learned of the affair, husband had no intention of ending it. In fact, now that wife knows, he still has no intention of ending it. It was his plan to continue his double life until the youngest child turned 18 so he would not have to pay child support. He also confessed to wife that he needed her income to support girlfriend.

Wife insists that husband choose between wife and girlfriend, and he chooses girlfriend. However, he informs wife that he has no real inclination to get a divorce. If that's what she wants, she has to do it, because he believes in family values and is against divorce for any reason.

Wife sincerely feels like she will be an active participant in adultery if she doesn't divorce husband. Even legal separation feels to her like she is participating in and condoning adultery. She also feels that she will have little credibility with her kids when speaking to them of moral issues if she continues to stay married under these circumstances. There is a commandment right on point, and yet, their family seems to openly flaunt it. The kids know all about the affair. Besides, what are the kids learning about the consequences of sin? What are the kids learning about how marriages are supposed to work?

Does the wife have a biblical reason for divorce?

Thanks for your thoughts.

quote:

How should this woman be counseled then?

quote:

Is it acceptable to obtain a legal separation, which ends the marriage in every way, except the final divorce decree?

quote:

Or is she required to keep alive some fiction that there is a marriage here?

quote:

If they are still married, would she be required to "submit" and take him back?

quote:

Your statement sounded on the verge of mocking God.

quote:

Moderator Asks:

When is divorce an acceptable option?

What does God think about divorce?

Is divorce a sin?

Does divorce make a person ineligible for ministry?

quote:

ORIGINAL: hnt

quote:

Your statement sounded on the verge of mocking God.

You didn't address the clear needs of this person, nor address the clear danger that this family is dealing with. Matter of fact you didn't even acknowledge it with any substance at all, and that keepingfaith can be taken as mocking and patronizing.

When you are called on it - you give it one paragraph at the end of your second go around.

James 2:14 starts: 14 What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? 15 Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, 16 and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?

17 So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

When someone is scared and needs help like the woman in question - telling the poster about how many 'wayward' spouses you know that came back is like telling someone to stay warm and eat while like they are cold and hungry.

God asks us to address the need in question, and YES you can also include hope as you mentioned as well. Not addressing the true urgent needs in question isn't mocking God, but a possible pride issue when you are called on it.

quote:

When someone is scared and needs help like the woman in question - telling the poster about how many 'wayward' spouses you know that came back is like telling someone to stay warm and eat while like they are cold and hungry.