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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2010 12:41:52 PM
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danw78
Posts: 54
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The Greek word that is translated "divorce" is. "apoluo", which means "to send/put away".
Malachi 2:16 "For I hate divorce!" says the LORD, the God of Israel. "To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "So guard your heart; do not be unfaithful to your wife."(New Living Translation)
Divorce is cruel, terribly cruel. And it causes so much hurt. Yes of course it is a sin. Even without a third party involved, it is an act of abandonment, rejection and unfaithfulness.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2010 7:34:09 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: danw78
The Greek word that is translated "divorce" is. "apoluo", which means "to send/put away".
Luke 13:27
But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
Strong's G868 – aphistçmi
Strong's G575 – apo
Strong's G1700 – emou
When Jesus says to them to Depart from Me, = then by definition the in like manner is apoluo", which means "to send/put away".
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2010 7:35:38 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
So if marriage is permanent ... divorce could not be a sin ... since it would be impossible to separate what God hath joined together.
However, since this conclusion stands in contradiction to every passage we have in Scripture that speaks of divorce, we must simply reject it as a false teaching.
Well in general what God hath joined together simply means is ....that which was joined together in LOVE...
In princiapl
John 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, (John 6:44) =in marriage
is greater than all;
and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Therefore.... as it is in Christ (Eph 5:32) ... generally that which is joined together in LOVE (Christ Jesus)John 10:30....
will in no way divorce one another
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/13/2010 10:31:10 PM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 918
Joined: 1/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
So if marriage is permanent ... divorce could not be a sin ... since it would be impossible to separate what God hath joined together.
However, since this conclusion stands in contradiction to every passage we have in Scripture that speaks of divorce, we must simply reject it as a false teaching.
quote:
So if marriage is permanent
Jesus is the Author of this definition of marriage: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
My conclusion is based on the meaning of marriage ... a joining together.
You are in "error" by deliberately failing to address my foundation "joining together" (marrying) and then you proceed to base your conclusion on the sole premise of divorce ... the "tearing apart". Think about your failure ... and then your unnessary "accusation" regarding the false teaching ... perhaps that shoe fits your foot. Jesus does address marriage now, I believe you should do likewise.
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2010 1:23:08 AM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
Joined: 12/17/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
So if marriage is permanent ... divorce could not be a sin ... since it would be impossible to separate what God hath joined together.
However, since this conclusion stands in contradiction to every passage we have in Scripture that speaks of divorce, we must simply reject it as a false teaching.
quote:
So if marriage is permanent
Jesus is the Author of this definition of marriage: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
My conclusion is based on the meaning of marriage ... a joining together.
You are in "error" by deliberately failing to address my foundation "joining together" (marrying) and then you proceed to base your conclusion on the sole premise of divorce ... the "tearing apart". Think about your failure ... and then your unnessary "accusation" regarding the false teaching ... perhaps that shoe fits your foot. Jesus does address marriage now, I believe you should do likewise.
Hay Huck... I use to think that the woman was not allowed to marry until her husband dies (only). But it looks to be that if the woman was divorced because she did commit adultery or sexual immorality in the marriage, the covenant is obolished and therefore she would be free to remarry.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2010 8:17:37 AM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 918
Joined: 1/30/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: huckfinn327
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
So if marriage is permanent ... divorce could not be a sin ... since it would be impossible to separate what God hath joined together.
However, since this conclusion stands in contradiction to every passage we have in Scripture that speaks of divorce, we must simply reject it as a false teaching.
quote:
So if marriage is permanent
Jesus is the Author of this definition of marriage: "But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
My conclusion is based on the meaning of marriage ... a joining together.
You are in "error" by deliberately failing to address my foundation "joining together" (marrying) and then you proceed to base your conclusion on the sole premise of divorce ... the "tearing apart". Think about your failure ... and then your unnessary "accusation" regarding the false teaching ... perhaps that shoe fits your foot. Jesus does address marriage now, I believe you should do likewise.
Hay Huck... I use to think that the woman was not allowed to marry until her husband dies (only). But it looks to be that if the woman was divorced because she did commit adultery or sexual immorality in the marriage, the covenant is obolished and therefore she would be free to remarry.
You are missing the "primary" truth of marriage.
Marriage = And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Thus the marriage bond is only severed by the death of a partner ... marriage is permanent and indissoluble till death do us part.
Therefore "all" sexual intercourse with someone other then a living partner = Adultery.
Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery. (Mk. 10:11,12)
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/24/2010 9:30:34 PM
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WilliamtheConqueror
Posts: 68
Joined: 7/31/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: AfterTheFlood
So instead challenging my position with a substantive counter I am derided as being "legalistic" (nothing could be further from the truth by the way), arrogant and more. Yes, we do need to love and support those who are in the divorce process, are divorced, or are remarried.
Very good AfterTheFlood, however I would take a more strict view on 'loving divorced and remarried' believers in the church. First they need to recognize that they are living in continual adultery as long as the ex is alive. If both exes are alive then it is double eyed adultery.
Also any progeny from the second marriage are b_stards! In the first century church in Asia minor and in the 19th century church in America they would have been excommunicated, period! Today however we sugar coat it and treat them just like couples on their first marriage in most EV churches. The pastors play chicken little and never touch on the subject of divorce and remarriage for fear of offending the subject parties and getting fired from the pastorate. Of course most EV pastors are Erasmians on the subject (after Desiderous Erasmus). The Reformers never should have listened to him. Pandora's box has been opened! However the children should be made aware that b_stards can become great individuals. Look at Jepthah (Judges)! I am descended from the great William the B_stard and look what he accomplished -King of England, 1066AD.
"There is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 12:52:17 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 382
Joined: 3/13/2009
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I find it incerdible that some of you claim that divorce is wrong not matter what. I know 2 women whose husbands sexually molested their children. In other words, they are phoedophiles. Would any of you like to be married to a pheodophile? Would you like your children to spend time with one alone?No I didnt think so.
What in cases where one spouse has divorced the other without their consent and when they havent been unfaithful or done anything similar?
What if one is unfaithful and maybe even leaves the spouse for another? From what I have read and studied and learnt, God allows divorce for pornea(which can mean many different types of sexual immorality including adultery, child abuse, gay sex etc).
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 12:58:37 AM
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herestoresmysoul
Posts: 382
Joined: 3/13/2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamtheConqueror
quote:
ORIGINAL: AfterTheFlood
So instead challenging my position with a substantive counter I am derided as being "legalistic" (nothing could be further from the truth by the way), arrogant and more. Yes, we do need to love and support those who are in the divorce process, are divorced, or are remarried.
Very good AfterTheFlood, however I would take a more strict view on 'loving divorced and remarried' believers in the church. First they need to recognize that they are living in continual adultery as long as the ex is alive. If both exes are alive then it is double eyed adultery.
Also any progeny from the second marriage are b_stards! In the first century church in Asia minor and in the 19th century church in America they would have been excommunicated, period! Today however we sugar coat it and treat them just like couples on their first marriage in most EV churches. The pastors play chicken little and never touch on the subject of divorce and remarriage for fear of offending the subject parties and getting fired from the pastorate. Of course most EV pastors are Erasmians on the subject (after Desiderous Erasmus). The Reformers never should have listened to him. Pandora's box has been opened! However the children should be made aware that b_stards can become great individuals. Look at Jepthah (Judges)! I am descended from the great William the B_stard and look what he accomplished -King of England, 1066AD.
"There is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs
They dont need to recognise that they are committing adultery because they arent. They are married. Jesus always recognised a divorce as ending a marriage, even if was not what he wanted, and this is clear in the story of the women at the well, where he recognised all the man as having been her husbands.
This sort of teaching is totally evil and something that I have never heard in the UK, wehre peopel know better. God will hold you responsible for the damage that you are doing by this opinion, and any marriage that breaks up because of it, He will hold you responsible. Believeme, I wouldnt want to be held responsible for destroying other peoples marriages, that is serious stuff.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 3:52:07 PM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 918
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamtheConqueror
quote:
ORIGINAL: AfterTheFlood
So instead challenging my position with a substantive counter I am derided as being "legalistic" (nothing could be further from the truth by the way), arrogant and more. Yes, we do need to love and support those who are in the divorce process, are divorced, or are remarried.
Very good AfterTheFlood, however I would take a more strict view on 'loving divorced and remarried' believers in the church. First they need to recognize that they are living in continual adultery as long as the ex is alive. If both exes are alive then it is double eyed adultery.
Also any progeny from the second marriage are b_stards! In the first century church in Asia minor and in the 19th century church in America they would have been excommunicated, period! Today however we sugar coat it and treat them just like couples on their first marriage in most EV churches. The pastors play chicken little and never touch on the subject of divorce and remarriage for fear of offending the subject parties and getting fired from the pastorate. Of course most EV pastors are Erasmians on the subject (after Desiderous Erasmus). The Reformers never should have listened to him. Pandora's box has been opened! However the children should be made aware that b_stards can become great individuals. Look at Jepthah (Judges)! I am descended from the great William the B_stard and look what he accomplished -King of England, 1066AD.
"There is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs
I certainly do not know all of your doctrine on MDR but as for this post I must say:
"and they spake the word of God with boldness."
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/25/2010 8:15:03 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2548
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WilliamtheConqueror
quote:
ORIGINAL: AfterTheFlood
So instead challenging my position with a substantive counter I am derided as being "legalistic" (nothing could be further from the truth by the way), arrogant and more. Yes, we do need to love and support those who are in the divorce process, are divorced, or are remarried.
Very good AfterTheFlood, however I would take a more strict view on 'loving divorced and remarried' believers in the church. First they need to recognize that they are living in continual adultery as long as the ex is alive. If both exes are alive then it is double eyed adultery.
Also any progeny from the second marriage are b_stards! In the first century church in Asia minor and in the 19th century church in America they would have been excommunicated, period! Today however we sugar coat it and treat them just like couples on their first marriage in most EV churches. The pastors play chicken little and never touch on the subject of divorce and remarriage for fear of offending the subject parties and getting fired from the pastorate. Of course most EV pastors are Erasmians on the subject (after Desiderous Erasmus). The Reformers never should have listened to him. Pandora's box has been opened! However the children should be made aware that b_stards can become great individuals. Look at Jepthah (Judges)! I am descended from the great William the B_stard and look what he accomplished -King of England, 1066AD.
"There is a way that seems right to a man but the ends thereof are the ways of death." Proverbs
One of the things that is way too often stated by those who teach this false doctrine is that the early church supported their views, THEY DID NOT!
While the early church did view almost every remarriage as sinful, they DID NOT EXCOMMUNICATE those who had remarried; they restricted them from leadership but not from membership. Nor did they believe that divorce was a valid means to repentance for those who had remarried.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 7:15:16 AM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
They dont need to recognise that they are committing adultery because they arent. They are married. Jesus always recognised a divorce as ending a marriage
Hey herestoresmysoul,
I struggle accepting that because of what Christ said:
Luke 16:18 (American Standard Version)
18 Every one that putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and he that marrieth one that is put away from a husband committeth adultery.
What marriage is Jesus calling adultery?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 11:01:59 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2506
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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If you all cannot stop debating REMARRIAGE then you all need to stay out of THIS thread.
_____________________________
Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith... ...so that you will not grow weary and lose heart. Hebrew 12:3-4
Follow me on Twitter: MrsLalaD
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 7:54:02 PM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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A marriage covenant is not obolished until it is done according to God's allowences in Scripture Deut 24:1. If you divorce your spouse, she divorces you, or you were divorced from your spouse not according to that allowence you "commit adutlery" if you marry another. Paul says a man is "bound" to his wife and a woman is "bound" to her husband until "loosed" or "set free" to marry again (1 Cor 7:27, 39).
Man was allowed to put away his wife (divorce) if she was found to have some uncleanness in her. This uncleanness was latter described as “sexual immorality” by Jesus in Matt 5:32, 19:9.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/26/2010 8:59:11 PM
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prophetjul
Posts: 666
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
Man was allowed to put away his wife (divorce) if she was found to have some uncleanness in her. This uncleanness was latter described as “sexual immorality” by Jesus in Matt 5:32, 19:9.
The word that Jesus used was
Porneia (Fornication)
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
whereas He immediately used
Moicheuo (adultery)
Whys this?
Is it because Jesus was refering to those who are bethroyed?
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/27/2010 1:43:43 AM
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cure4divorce
Posts: 571
Joined: 12/17/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
Man was allowed to put away his wife (divorce) if she was found to have some uncleanness in her. This uncleanness was latter described as “sexual immorality” by Jesus in Matt 5:32, 19:9.
The word that Jesus used was
Porneia (Fornication)
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
whereas He immediately used
Moicheuo (adultery)
Whys this?
Is it because Jesus was refering to those who are bethroyed?
We know Jesus was not referring to those who are betrothed, for it was a refference to Deut 24:1 and Deut 24:1 says if the man sends the woman out of his "house"... she would not be living with the man if they were only betrothed. Deut 24:1 was referring to a man who was married.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/27/2010 9:31:22 AM
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huckfinn327
Posts: 918
Joined: 1/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
Man was allowed to put away his wife (divorce) if she was found to have some uncleanness in her. This uncleanness was latter described as “sexual immorality” by Jesus in Matt 5:32, 19:9.
The word that Jesus used was
Porneia (Fornication)
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
whereas He immediately used
Moicheuo (adultery)
Whys this?
Is it because Jesus was refering to those who are bethroyed?
We know Jesus was not referring to those who are betrothed, for it was a refference to Deut 24:1 and Deut 24:1 says if the man sends the woman out of his "house"... she would not be living with the man if they were only betrothed. Deut 24:1 was referring to a man who was married.
quote:
(Quote Mikesayen)We know Jesus was not referring to those who are betrothed, for it was a refference to Deut 24:1 and Deut 24:1 says if the man sends the woman out of his "house"... she would not be living with the man if they were only betrothed. Deut 24:1 was referring to a man who was married.
The O.T. conceded divorce, remarriage, and polygamy to the sinful heart of man ... but Jesus forever abolished those concessions with this doctrine:
Mar 10:8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Think about it ...
_____________________________
NO-REMARRIAGE-THIS-SIDE-OF-DEATH .... JESUS TAUGHT CREATION MARRIAGE
www.jesusremarriagekeller.com
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/27/2010 9:34:14 PM
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prophetjul
Posts: 666
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: mikesayen
Man was allowed to put away his wife (divorce) if she was found to have some uncleanness in her. This uncleanness was latter described as “sexual immorality” by Jesus in Matt 5:32, 19:9.
The word that Jesus used was
Porneia (Fornication)
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
whereas He immediately used
Moicheuo (adultery)
Whys this?
Is it because Jesus was refering to those who are bethroyed?
We know Jesus was not referring to those who are betrothed, for it was a refference to Deut 24:1 and Deut 24:1 says if the man sends the woman out of his "house"... she would not be living with the man if they were only betrothed. Deut 24:1 was referring to a man who was married.
If Jesus was refering to Deut 24, the word used is `ervah
nakedness, nudity, shame, pudenda
pudenda (implying shameful exposure)
nakedness of a thing, indecency, improper behaviour
exposed, undefended
Is there anything about fornication?
why is He using TWO different words, porniea and moicheuo which has distinct meanings?
Porniea can only be commited IF you are Not married whereas moicheuo is commited when you are Married.
The most important reason is Jesus would have contradicted Himself if He went along with that exception in your interpretation of that exception.
quote:
For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2010 12:34:17 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2548
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
If Jesus was refering to Deut 24, the word used is `ervah
nakedness, nudity, shame, pudenda
pudenda (implying shameful exposure)
nakedness of a thing, indecency, improper behaviour
exposed, undefended
Is there anything about fornication?
Actually, the word is the construct 'ervat' and it does not stand alone, it is part of an idiomatic phrase i.e. 'ervat devar' and yes, it does have very strong implications of sexual infidelity.
quote:
why is He using TWO different words, porniea and moicheuo which has distinct meanings?
Because the first term 'porniea' is a broader term that includes many different kinds of sexual infidelity i.e. incest, prostitution, etc... moicheuo refers to a much more specific type of sexual infidelity.
quote:
Porniea can only be commited IF you are Not married whereas moicheuo is commited when you are Married.
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/28/2010 8:13:21 PM
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prophetjul
Posts: 666
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX
Describing Gomer
na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31
Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?
So why did Jesus use the two different words?
Plus
The most important reason is Jesus would have contradicted Himself if He went along with that exception
quote:
For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 1:09:15 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2548
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX
Describing Gomer
na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31
Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?
And the Greek LXX translation was 'porniea' i.e. the same word used in Mt. 19 that is translated fornication.
quote:
So why did Jesus use the two different words?
Because he wanted people to understand that ANY kind of gross sexual infidelity can break the marriage bond, NOT JUST adultery.
quote:
Plus
The most important reason is Jesus would have contradicted Himself if He went along with that exception
quote:
For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder
No, he did not contradict himself AND IT WAS HE WHO GAVE US THE EXCEPTION!
AGAIN, there is a big difference between "let not man put asunder" and "man cannot put asunder", just like there is a difference between "let man not commit murder" and "man cannot commit murder". We all know and understand that a man SHOULD NOT commit murder, but we also all know that many men DO commit murder.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 7:59:06 PM
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prophetjul
Posts: 666
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX
Describing Gomer
na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31
Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?
And the Greek LXX translation was 'porniea' i.e. the same word used in Mt. 19 that is translated fornication.
How come no one translate it like you do? Can you post links to this translation pls?
quote:
So why did Jesus use the two different words?
quote:
Because he wanted people to understand that ANY kind of gross sexual infidelity can break the marriage bond, NOT JUST adultery.
Thats your interpretation. i could say that the exception is that the adulteress would have been put to death. So dead people do not marry.
quote:
Plus
The most important reason is Jesus would have contradicted Himself if He went along with that exception
quote:
For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? 6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together , let not man put asunder
quote:
No, he did not contradict himself AND IT WAS HE WHO GAVE US THE EXCEPTION!
AGAIN, there is a big difference between "let not man put asunder" and "man cannot put asunder", just like there is a difference between "let man not commit murder" and "man cannot commit murder". We all know and understand that a man SHOULD NOT commit murder, but we also all know that many men DO commit murder.
IF He gave the exception, He would have contradicted GOD! Hello? It was Moses command. Did He not say that?
quote:
Then some Pharisees 3 came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful 4 to divorce a wife for any cause?” 5 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 19:7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 19:8 Jesus 9 said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, 10 but from the beginning it was not this way. 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”
He would have broken God's law.
This is not commiting murder. Its God's designed covenant. Let no man put assunder. It means no man can take apart.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 8:40:02 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2548
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX
Describing Gomer
na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31
Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?
And the Greek LXX translation was 'porniea' i.e. the same word used in Mt. 19 that is translated fornication.
How come no one translate it like you do? Can you post links to this translation pls?
Will start with the objective and undisputable parts first. Here is the text from the LXX and the text from Matthew.
κρίθητε πρὸς τὴν μητέρα ὑμῶν κρίθητε ὅτι αὐτὴ οὐ γυνή μου καὶ ἐγὼ οὐκ ἀνὴρ αὐτῆς καὶ ἐξαρῶ τὴν πορνείαν αὐτῆς ἐκ προσώπου μου καὶ τὴν μοιχείαν αὐτῆς ἐκ μέσου μαστῶν αὐτῆς ὅπως ἂν ἐκδύσω αὐτὴν γυμνὴν καὶ ἀποκαταστήσω αὐτὴν καθὼς ἡμέρᾳ γενέσεως αὐτῆς καὶ θήσομαι αὐτὴν ὡς ἔρημον καὶ τάξω αὐτὴν ὡς γῆν ἄνυδρον καὶ ἀποκτενῶ αὐτὴν ἐν δίψει καὶ τὰ τέκνα αὐτῆς οὐ μὴ ἐλεήσω ὅτι τέκνα πορνείας ἐστίν (Hos 2:4-6 LXX)
λέγω δὲ ὑμῖν ὅτι ὃς ἂν ἀπολύσῃ τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ μὴ ἐπὶ πορνείᾳ καὶ γαμήσῃ ἄλλην μοιχᾶται. (Mat 19:9 BGT)
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 10:08:11 PM
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prophetjul
Posts: 666
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX
Describing Gomer
na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31
Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?
And the Greek LXX translation was 'porniea' i.e. the same word used in Mt. 19 that is translated fornication.
How come no one translate it like you do? Can you post links to this translation pls?
Will start with the objective and undisputable parts first. Here is the text from the LXX and the text from Matthew.
êñίèçôå ðñὸò ôὴí ìçôέñá ὑìῶí êñίèçôå ὅôé áὐôὴ ïὐ ãõíή ìïõ êáὶ ἐãὼ ïὐê ἀíὴñ áὐôῆò êáὶ ἐîáñῶ ôὴí ðïñíåίáí áὐôῆò ἐê ðñïóώðïõ ìïõ êáὶ ôὴí ìïé÷åίáí áὐôῆò ἐê ìέóïõ ìáóôῶí áὐôῆò ὅðùò ἂí ἐêäύóù áὐôὴí ãõìíὴí êáὶ ἀðïêáôáóôήóù áὐôὴí êáèὼò ἡìέñᾳ ãåíέóåùò áὐôῆò êáὶ èήóïìáé áὐôὴí ὡò ἔñçìïí êáὶ ôάîù áὐôὴí ὡò ãῆí ἄíõäñïí êáὶ ἀðïêôåíῶ áὐôὴí ἐí äίøåé êáὶ ôὰ ôέêíá áὐôῆò ïὐ ìὴ ἐëåήóù ὅôé ôέêíá ðïñíåίáò ἐóôίí (Hos 2:4-6 LXX)
ëέãù äὲ ὑìῖí ὅôé ὃò ἂí ἀðïëύóῃ ôὴí ãõíáῖêá áὐôïῦ ìὴ ἐðὶ ðïñíåίᾳ êáὶ ãáìήóῃ ἄëëçí ìïé÷ᾶôáé. (Mat 19:9 BGT)
Ok Thanks.
So for scriptures to be consistent and for the Lord not be contradictory, He is only explaning what Moses did, which is Not God's will. He sets the theology in the first part of two becoming one. Then he explains what Moses did.
quote:
19:3 Then some Pharisees 3 came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful 4 to divorce a wife for any cause?” 5 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 19:7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 19:8 Jesus 9 said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, 10 but from the beginning it was not this way. 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”
SO, in conclusion based on this one verse(no other gospels has this)and porniea to include adultery, i would speculate that since the readers are jews,
a) anyone who commits adultery is put to death anyway. Dead dont remarry. So they are out of the picture!
b) leaves those who fornicate, who are not married yet, maybe bethroth. They can be 'divorced'.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: Divorce - One Stop Thread - 4/29/2010 10:44:22 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2548
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
This is simply one of the false claims far too often made by those holding this false doctrine. Porniea is often used to describe gross sexual immorality of those who are married. In the bible, it is used to describe the sexual infidelity of Gomar (Hosea's wife) and Jezebel (Ahab's wife) in the Greek LXX
Describing Gomer
na'aph <05003>
Pan na'aph
Pronunciation: naw-af'
Origin: a primitive root
Reference: TWOT - 1273
PrtSpch: verb
In Hebrew: Mypanm 4, Pan 2, twpan 2, Pant 2, wpanyw 2, wpan 2, Pany 2, Panw 2, hnpant 2, Pantw 1, Mypanmbw 1, tpanm 1, tpan 1, Panh 1, Panm 1, Pwan 1, tpanmw 1, tpanhw 1, hpan 1, tpanmh 1
In NET: commit adultery 4, adulterous 3, adultery 3, unfaithful 2, adulteresses 2, committed adultery 2, adulterer 2, adulteress 2, commits adultery 2, unfaithful wife 1, people unfaithful 1, men who are unfaithful to their wives 1, bakers 1
In AV: adultery 17, adulterer 8, adulteress 4, adulterous 1, women that break wedlock 1
Count: 31
Seems to be all about wedlock infedlity?
And the Greek LXX translation was 'porniea' i.e. the same word used in Mt. 19 that is translated fornication.
How come no one translate it like you do? Can you post links to this translation pls?
Will start with the objective and undisputable parts first. Here is the text from the LXX and the text from Matthew.
êñίèçôå ðñὸò ôὴí ìçôέñá ὑìῶí êñίèçôå ὅôé áὐôὴ ïὐ ãõíή ìïõ êáὶ ἐãὼ ïὐê ἀíὴñ áὐôῆò êáὶ ἐîáñῶ ôὴí ðïñíåίáí áὐôῆò ἐê ðñïóώðïõ ìïõ êáὶ ôὴí ìïé÷åίáí áὐôῆò ἐê ìέóïõ ìáóôῶí áὐôῆò ὅðùò ἂí ἐêäύóù áὐôὴí ãõìíὴí êáὶ ἀðïêáôáóôήóù áὐôὴí êáèὼò ἡìέñᾳ ãåíέóåùò áὐôῆò êáὶ èήóïìáé áὐôὴí ὡò ἔñçìïí êáὶ ôάîù áὐôὴí ὡò ãῆí ἄíõäñïí êáὶ ἀðïêôåíῶ áὐôὴí ἐí äίøåé êáὶ ôὰ ôέêíá áὐôῆò ïὐ ìὴ ἐëåήóù ὅôé ôέêíá ðïñíåίáò ἐóôίí (Hos 2:4-6 LXX)
ëέãù äὲ ὑìῖí ὅôé ὃò ἂí ἀðïëύóῃ ôὴí ãõíáῖêá áὐôïῦ ìὴ ἐðὶ ðïñíåίᾳ êáὶ ãáìήóῃ ἄëëçí ìïé÷ᾶôáé. (Mat 19:9 BGT)
Ok Thanks.
So for scriptures to be consistent and for the Lord not be contradictory, He is only explaning what Moses did, which is Not God's will. He sets the theology in the first part of two becoming one. Then he explains what Moses did.
quote:
19:3 Then some Pharisees 3 came to him in order to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful 4 to divorce a wife for any cause?” 5 19:4 He answered, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator made them male and female, 6 19:5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and will be united with his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 7 19:6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 19:7 They said to him, “Why then did Moses command us to give a certificate of dismissal and to divorce her?” 8 19:8 Jesus 9 said to them, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because of your hard hearts, 10 but from the beginning it was not this way. 19:9 Now I say to you that whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another commits adultery.”
SO, in conclusion based on this one verse(no other gospels has this)and porniea to include adultery, i would speculate that since the readers are jews,
a) anyone who commits adultery is put to death anyway. Dead dont remarry. So they are out of the picture!
b) leaves those who fornicate, who are not married yet, maybe bethroth. They can be 'divorced'.
There are two big problems with this theory:
1) In the first century, it was very uncommon for anyone to be put to death for adultery.
2) The OT Law required a woman to be put to death for sexual infidelity while betrothed (Deut. 22:23-24) just like it did for sexual infidelity after the marriage took place, so NO the Jewish people would have no reason to exclude the latter understanding when they heard Jesus words.
Like it or not, 'porniea' was used to describe sexual infidelity of many kinds inside and outside of marriage, and there is nothing in the context of Jesus' words that would cause one to conclude that he was referring to sexual infidelity outside of marriage. This is another area where those teaching this new perspective on MDR are in disagreement with the early church; the early church did not support this "betrothal" perspective. This simply an invention of those who do not want to acknowledge the exception Jesus gave us.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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