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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2010 1:05:46 PM
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gmcspice
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quote:
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ORIGINAL: LoyalGypsy
Greetings
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We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings
and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us?
Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
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and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us?
I cant imagine that, because God is in control and God never changes
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We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings
I for one find is useless to pray against wherever God has ordained by the laws He has put in motion, if any walls are created, then He created them
Job 11:10 If he cut off, and shut up, or gather together, then who can hinder him?
LG
Amen LG!
God already KNOWS everything that is going to happen.
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Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
Yes Bryan we are. But where does it say that you have to DO something to RECEIVE forgiveness?
No where.
Jesus says for us to forgive NO MATTER WHAT other people do to us.
And forgiveness does not necessarily mean that door is open to reconciliation. We must pray and ask GOD what HE wants for our lives.
Reconciliation with God is SPIRITUAL.
You are talking about reconciliation of the flesh. That is a totally different thing.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2010 10:05:07 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
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quote:
quote:
He will not only forgive through us but He will love through us. Even those who are persecuting us. He hung on a cross and prayed for those who put Him there. Sometimes being faithful to a covenant spouse who is not faithful in return may be a cross one is given. We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us?
quote:
I cant imagine that, because God is in control and God never changes
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
quote:
quote:
We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings
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I for one find is useless to pray against wherever God has ordained by the laws He has put in motion, if any walls are created, then He created them
I believer, rather, that if we choose to not forgive someone, or to "forgive" them with a "forgiveness" that is un-Christlike and is not open to reconciliation, that is our choice. God did not create the wall, rather the devil, the father of all lies, the lion searching to devour the soul, preyed upon our weeknesses, our pride and our selfishness. We created the wall and we create the wall that keeps us on the wide path. It keeps us from seeing the narrow path. Christ can tear down that wall, we just have to let Him.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2010 10:16:00 PM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
quote:
He will not only forgive through us but He will love through us. Even those who are persecuting us. He hung on a cross and prayed for those who put Him there. Sometimes being faithful to a covenant spouse who is not faithful in return may be a cross one is given. We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings and says, "I will never take you back for I love another. I have made a covenant with another" Imagine if God did that to us?
quote:
I cant imagine that, because God is in control and God never changes
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
Please tell me how your view is showing the love of Christ?
You are telling people they have to divorce, Bryan. Divorce is not from God.
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quote:
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We can create a god who will allow us to build a wall that keeps out reconciliation and records the wrongdoings
quote:
I for one find is useless to pray against wherever God has ordained by the laws He has put in motion, if any walls are created, then He created them
I believer, rather, that if we choose to not forgive someone, or to "forgive" them with a "forgiveness" that is un-Christlike and is not open to reconciliation, that is our choice. God did not create the wall, rather the devil, the father of all lies, the lion searching to devour the soul, preyed upon our weaknesses, our pride and our selfishness. We created the wall and we create the wall that keeps us on the wide path. It keeps us from seeing the narrow path. Christ can tear down that wall, we just have to let Him.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
How is going back to them after you have been married again showing forgiveness?
You can forgive without that. Jesus did it. Why can't we?
Divorce is NOT a sign of repentance or forgiveness.
That is the lie, Bryan. Telling people they HAVE TO divorce to get forgiveness.
That is not from God.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/30/2010 10:32:11 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
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quote:
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Do we not pray to be forgiven as we forgive others?
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Yes Bryan we are. But where does it say that you have to DO something to RECEIVE forgiveness?
No where.
gmcspice, hope you are well.
This is a powerful lie that we need to fight against. The devil would certainly like us to believe that there is nothing more to being forgiven than asking. Certainly asking (which is doing something) is necessary as is receiving (which also is doing something).
1) We must forgive others or we will not be forgiven...
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:14,15)
2) We must confess our sins so that we can be forgiven
"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9)
3) We must repent of our sins so that we can be forgiven
"Therefore this is what the Lord says, 'If you repent, I will restore you that you may serve me.'" (Jeremiah 15:19a)
What are the two things here that Peter mentions are necessary for the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit?
Acts 2:38
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Of course the repentance presupposes the recognition of that which we come to desire to repent of.
gmcspice, this message has been preached since the beginning of Christianity. However, it has become so very watered down. It is as though we are reversing the miracle of Cana and turning the wine of the Gospel into the water of sentimentalism.
We are trying to have Christ without the cross. We claim to believe in a Christ who carried the heaviest of crosses. Yet when we are presented with a situation and the prospect of living 20, 40 or 70 years of our life without an earthly spouse who loves us we quickly create a God who would never expect us to carry such a cross. The awesome thing is, however, that He doesn't expect us to carry it.... alone anyway. He can use this as a way to prepare our heart for the eternal love of the eternal Spouse.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2010 7:47:25 AM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
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quote:
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
quote:
Please tell me how your view is showing the love of Christ?
You are telling people they have to divorce, Bryan. Divorce is not from God.
Good morning gmcspice,
The love of Christ never compromises Truth. It is the love of a person's eternal happiness.
It is recognizing the truth that was taught by Christ and has been taught for nearly 2000 years that to put away the spouse of your youth, of your covenant, and to marry another is adultery. It is the recognition that adultery is committed by adulterers and adulterers will not inherit eternal life. It is the love a soul's eternal joy, even if it means a cross on this earth.
Without this Truth, charity slides into sentimentalism.
We will create a God who accepts homosexual marriage and would hate a divorce from it.
If the homosexual marriage is blessed by God, if it is a true marriage... then God would indeed hate the separation of the two, He would hate the divorce... He would hate the claiming that the one flesh covenant marriage was no longer in existence.
Of course God does not bless the homosexual marriage, He calls that relationship what it is... sin. Therefore, repentance would include ending the sin, ending the relationship. I do not much care about a civil divorce to end it. The relationship, the sexual, and desire to be sexual, relationship must end.
Must they cease living together? I don't know. Is it leading other persons into a similar lifestyle but one that is sexual? Is there a real spouse out there who is remaining faithful to his/her vows and open to reconciliation upon true repentance, ready to forgive as God forgives? Are there children involved? These are all things we will consider as we allow Christ to live in us and seek His will for our lives.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2010 8:19:15 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
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quote:
1) We must forgive others or we will not be forgiven...
"For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." (Matthew 6:14,15)
Jesus does not say that the person who has sinned against us has to repent to us for us to forgive them. It does not say we must divorce to SHOW repentance either.
You agree that divorce is sin in most cases, correct?
Then you must understand that God would NOT tell us to sin to cover a sin.
Why don't you get that?
SIN is not from God!
He would never tell a person to SIN to cover a sin.
Why do you NOT accept the entire word of God?
You can't build a doctrine on one or two verses.
You still must obey God's law.
If you have been married again, you cannot go back to your former spouse. The Bible says this.
That is why Jesus tells us that some cannot accept being married. Because it is very complicated. and once you have divorced, you cannot go back. You can forgive but you can't go back.
And divorce is NOT a means to repentance.
Not to mention if a person has divorced for fornication they can get married again because they have not sinned. Jesus said this. Why do you not accept the whole truth of the Bible?
You cherry pick and try to keep people in bondage. That is not of Christ.
He clearly told the woman caught in adultery to "GO and SIN no more" that means adultery is NOT continuous like you think.
That is what repentance truly is is.
It is a very good example. Yet you ignore it.
And tell people they must divorce to be forgiven of being married again.
Again, for the millionth time, God would not tell someone to sin. God is not the author of sin.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2010 8:24:15 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
quote:
Please tell me how your view is showing the love of Christ?
You are telling people they have to divorce, Bryan. Divorce is not from God.
Good morning gmcspice,
The love of Christ never compromises Truth. It is the love of a person's eternal happiness.
It is recognizing the truth that was taught by Christ and has been taught for nearly 2000 years that to put away the spouse of your youth, of your covenant, and to marry another is adultery. It is the recognition that adultery is committed by adulterers and adulterers will not inherit eternal life. It is the love a soul's eternal joy, even if it means a cross on this earth.
Without this Truth, charity slides into sentimentalism.
We will create a God who accepts homosexual marriage and would hate a divorce from it.
Homosexuality is NOT the same as two people of the opposite sex being married. Please stop trying to use this as an example. Homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes. If it is committed, one must ask for forgiveness and not do it again.
Marriage of the opposite sex is not.
Returning back to your former spouse is also an abomination. There can ony be forgiveness in this sense. There is no way to repent of it except staying with current spouse and not divorcing again or committing adultery again.
quote:
If the homosexual marriage is blessed by God, if it is a true marriage... then God would indeed hate the separation of the two, He would hate the divorce... He would hate the claiming that the one flesh covenant marriage was no longer in existence.
Of course God does not bless the homosexual marriage, He calls that relationship what it is... sin. Therefore, repentance would include ending the sin, ending the relationship. I do not much care about a civil divorce to end it. The relationship, the sexual, and desire to be sexual, relationship must end.
Again homosexuality is totally against God and the nature in which God created male and female.
quote:
Must they cease living together? I don't know. Is it leading other persons into a similar lifestyle but one that is sexual? Is there a real spouse out there who is remaining faithful to his/her vows and open to reconciliation upon true repentance, ready to forgive as God forgives? Are there children involved? These are all things we will consider as we allow Christ to live in us and seek His will for our lives.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
True repentance does not mean divorcing a current spouse to return to a former spouse. You cannot use a sin to cover a sin. God is not the author of sin therefore that command does not come from him. It is man made and has never been upheld by the Church.
If there is no intervening marriage, YES, reconciliation is very possible. Once there is a new marriage, there can be no reconciliation. Only forgiveness.
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2010 10:19:36 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
quote:
Please tell me how your view is showing the love of Christ?
You are telling people they have to divorce, Bryan. Divorce is not from God.
Good morning gmcspice,
The love of Christ never compromises Truth. It is the love of a person's eternal happiness.
It is recognizing the truth that was taught by Christ
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
Christ did not "teach " truth, He is truth
He is not one of the prophets 
quote:
The love of Christ never compromises Truth.
If one believes that......Then this is what the Bibles says
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth , and the life.
No one comes to the Father except through Me.
quote:
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
The doctrine I offer for some to hear... is Biblical.... therefore fulfilling that command that honors the covenant
Jhn 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
LG
< Message edited by LoyalGypsy -- 8/31/2010 10:26:06 AM >
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2010 10:33:13 AM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 2408
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmcspice
quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
Hello LG,
Yet the doctrine you teach tells men and women that they can be a Christian yet not desire to imitate Christ and honor your covenant.
quote:
Please tell me how your view is showing the love of Christ?
You are telling people they have to divorce, Bryan. Divorce is not from God.
Good morning gmcspice,
The love of Christ never compromises Truth. It is the love of a person's eternal happiness.
It is recognizing the truth that was taught by Christ and has been taught for nearly 2000 years that to put away the spouse of your youth, of your covenant, and to marry another is adultery. It is the recognition that adultery is committed by adulterers and adulterers will not inherit eternal life. It is the love a soul's eternal joy, even if it means a cross on this earth.
Without this Truth, charity slides into sentimentalism.
We will create a God who accepts homosexual marriage and would hate a divorce from it.
Homosexuality is NOT the same as two people of the opposite sex being married. Please stop trying to use this as an example. Homosexuality is an abomination in God's eyes. If it is committed, one must ask for forgiveness and not do it again.
Marriage of the opposite sex is not.
Returning back to your former spouse is also an abomination. There can ony be forgiveness in this sense. There is no way to repent of it except staying with current spouse and not divorcing again or committing adultery again.
quote:
If the homosexual marriage is blessed by God, if it is a true marriage... then God would indeed hate the separation of the two, He would hate the divorce... He would hate the claiming that the one flesh covenant marriage was no longer in existence.
Of course God does not bless the homosexual marriage, He calls that relationship what it is... sin. Therefore, repentance would include ending the sin, ending the relationship. I do not much care about a civil divorce to end it. The relationship, the sexual, and desire to be sexual, relationship must end.
Again homosexuality is totally against God and the nature in which God created male and female.
quote:
Must they cease living together? I don't know. Is it leading other persons into a similar lifestyle but one that is sexual? Is there a real spouse out there who is remaining faithful to his/her vows and open to reconciliation upon true repentance, ready to forgive as God forgives? Are there children involved? These are all things we will consider as we allow Christ to live in us and seek His will for our lives.
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
True repentance does not mean divorcing a current spouse to return to a former spouse. You cannot use a sin to cover a sin. God is not the author of sin therefore that command does not come from him. It is man made and has never been upheld by the Church.
If there is no intervening marriage, YES, reconciliation is very possible. Once there is a new marriage, there can be no reconciliation. Only forgiveness.
Greetings
quote:
Homosexuality is NOT the same as two people of the opposite sex being married. Please stop trying to use this as an example.
Thats by reason They have absolutely nothing concerning Christian doctrine to offer GM
LG
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed "obey My voice"
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2010 11:58:18 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 13117
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MODERATOR NOTE: ATTENTION
This thread is about the *topic* of Remarriage After Divorce.
Please keep your posts on that topic, and do not wander off into other areas--start new threads for new topics.
Some posters are taking this discussion on a very personal level and getting quite upset by it. If you are unable to discuss this topic in a detached and reasonable manner, it is advisable that you find another thread to post in and avoid this one.
In this and all threads, insults and unwelcome spiritual judgments are not allowed.
Do not reply to this message in forums, or send me emails or pms about it. If you have a question or concern, email community@salemwebnetwork.com
< Message edited by Ps103 -- 9/7/2010 1:12:34 PM >
_____________________________
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 1:19:29 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
You agree that divorce is sin in most cases, correct?
Then you must understand that God would NOT tell us to sin to cover a sin.
Why don't you get that?
Hello gmcspice, hope you have been well.
You have stated this many times and several of us have answered it.
It helps me to put this into a real life situation (people I know). John and Sue are validly married. John and Sue divorce. John marries Barbara.
1) We know that John commits adultery when he marries Barbara.
Luke 16:18
18Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery:...
John fits into the "whosoever" group.
2) We know that adultery is a sin.
3) We know that it is not a sin to stop sinning.
You believe something that was not believed for 1500 years of Christianity. You believe that the next relationship ceases to be adultery at a certain point and that John and Barbara's marriage, for example, becomes valid. This would mean that Christ shed His blood so that sinful relationships can become blessed. IF that were true then you would be right that John and Barbara should not end their next marriage, for that would then be sinful. IF that were true then there is not a sinful relationship that should end, rather, the partners in the relationship could simply ask God to forgive then and then continue in the relationship. You can tell homosexual married partners that they need to end their relationship but they can simply respond that they have asked for forgiveness, received it and have a blessed relationship.
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Not to mention if a person has divorced for fornication they can get married again because they have not sinned. Jesus said this. Why do you not accept the whole truth of the Bible?
This is another one that is often used. I have posted several times how the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage perfectly harmonizes with and is perfectly supported by other key tenets of the Christian faith: forgiveness, repentance, truth telling, keeping vows, and most importantly a love that doesn't record wrong doings, always hopes and perseveres and never ends.
I would be interested to here how you believe someone who divorces and marries another is imitating Christ...
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 1:33:56 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
Christ did not "teach " truth, He is truth
Lg,
I believe that God can become flesh and both be Truth and a teacher of Truth.
John 13:13
13"You call Me (A)Teacher and (B)Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
And I believe that true teachers teach.
How does someone who divorces and marries someone else imitate Christ in his relationship with his first wife?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 5:01:20 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
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quote:
John 13:13
13"You call Me (A)Teacher and (B)Lord;
The same Greek Word is also used defining False teachers, whom are also called MASTER
Hello LG,
I thought you said that Jesus didn't teach truth. I believe that He taught Truth and is Truth.
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quote:
quote:
How does someone who divorces and marries someone else imitate Christ in his relationship with his first wife?
When?
1 Before salvation
2 After salvation
Feel free answer within either or both "contexts"...
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 5:29:25 PM
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car2nist
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quote:
This would mean that Christ shed His blood so that sinful relationships can become blessed.
And yet people don't seem to have a problem believing this is possible if it is a first marriage, even if the couple was married against God's plan.
So if a disobedient (sinful) first marriage can become holy and blessed then why won't a 2nd marriage.
_____________________________
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 6:52:55 PM
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Faithfilled4life
Posts: 10
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quote:
This is another one that is often used. I have posted several times how the Truth of the indissolubility of marriage perfectly harmonizes with and is perfectly supported by other key tenets of the Christian faith: forgiveness, repentance, truth telling, keeping vows, and most importantly a love that doesn't record wrong doings, always hopes and perseveres and never ends.
The most important relationship we will ever have is the one we have with Jesus Christ. You can truly forgive and move on. When I see the the term "record wrong doings" it makes me think of keeping score, when that isn't necessarily the case for both spouses. You can love, truly love and realize that it's time to move on.
A divorce ends the marriage, which means the two are no longer married. If a person who is not married marries another person who is not married.............where is the sin? Unless they married against the will of God.
We know what God intended for marriage to be when He created Eve for Adam. It was to be permanent. We also know that Hell was not intended for man, but as believers we also know that many, many will end up there. Remarriage is not the unpardonable sin.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 7:06:48 PM
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Faithfilled4life
Posts: 10
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
How does someone who divorces and marries someone else imitate Christ in his relationship with his first wife?
Depends, is he divorcing his first wife in order to marry his second wife? If so, he's not imitating Christ at all.
Otherwise, assuming one or both broke their marriage vows, does he forgive his wife or seek forgiveness? Does he leave the matter of reconciliation in God's hands regardless of what his wife has done? Is the second marriage in God's will?
We are to be an example of Christ here on Earth, but we cannot get so caught up in what is dead and should be behind us, when God means for us to be about His business. That is if God says it's dead.
The marriage is not more important than the people in the marriage. It does one spouse no good to live as a martyr when they aren't called to.
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 9:21:49 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
quote:
This would mean that Christ shed His blood so that sinful relationships can become blessed.
quote:
And yet people don't seem to have a problem believing this is possible if it is a first marriage, even if the couple was married against God's plan.
So if a disobedient (sinful) first marriage can become holy and blessed then why won't a 2nd marriage.
Hello car2ner,
What is an example of a never before married, unrelated man and woman getting married "against God's plan?" What if two Hottentots get married, never hearing of Jesus and never seeking God's will. Can they not be married according to the Natural Law?
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 9:35:51 PM
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RYNODOG
Posts: 664
Joined: 3/15/2010
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quote:
You can truly forgive and move on.
Hello faithfilled4life,
Is this how you hope our Lord forgives you? If not why would you not desire to imitate Christ in how He forgives? Why would you pray to be forgiven as you forgive others and then choose to "forgive and move on?" Do we not expect this prayer to be answered and that we really will be forgiven as we have forgiven others? Even, and especially, a spouse?
quote:
When I see the the term "record wrong doings" it makes me think of keeping score, when that isn't necessarily the case for both spouses. You can love, truly love and realize that it's time to move on.
Is this how Christ loves the Church? If not then why would you not imitate Christ in loving your bride as He loves the Church?
quote:
A divorce ends the marriage, which means the two are no longer married.
Who was the first Christian who believed that Jesus taught that divorce "ends a marriage?"
If divorce ends a marriage then why does Jesus call the next marriage adultery? Who is the adultery against?
Luke 16:18
18"(A)Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery..,
Bryan
LOVE SO AMAZING
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/10/2010 9:55:39 AM
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car2nist
Posts: 3500
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: the other side of the computer screen
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quote:
Hello car2ner,
What is an example of a never before married, unrelated man and woman getting married "against God's plan?" What if two Hottentots get married, never hearing of Jesus and never seeking God's will. Can they not be married according to the Natural Law?
Bryan
I do not expect a couple who do not know about Christ to live according to the Law. Natural Law is survival of the fittest, so how that fits into your argument I do not know.
So let's look at the Gifts of the Spirit and judging a tree by it's fruit. If a first marriage is begun sinfully, for instance an easy example is a believer becoming unequally yoked, can it not one day show Fruit? You would say yes. You would not tell them they must divorce to show repentance first. Little miss Methodist must remain married to mr. Pagan and pray for their marriage to become whole.
This sinful union must be maintained until someone dies.
But if it were a 2nd marriage, you would counsel divorce. Even if it wert two Christians in a marriage with good Fruit, you would demand divorce as a show of repentance. So you expect the first marriage to become blessed by God without divorce, even though it began in sin, yet not a 2nd.
_____________________________
http://car2ner.imagekind.com
"May your days be long and your hardships few".
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/11/2010 7:52:21 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: car2ner
quote:
Hello car2ner,
What is an example of a never before married, unrelated man and woman getting married "against God's plan?" What if two Hottentots get married, never hearing of Jesus and never seeking God's will. Can they not be married according to the Natural Law?
Bryan
I do not expect a couple who do not know about Christ to live according to the Law. Natural Law is survival of the fittest, so how that fits into your argument I do not know.
So let's look at the Gifts of the Spirit and judging a tree by it's fruit. If a first marriage is begun sinfully, for instance an easy example is a believer becoming unequally yoked, can it not one day show Fruit? You would say yes. You would not tell them they must divorce to show repentance first. Little miss Methodist must remain married to mr. Pagan and pray for their marriage to become whole.
This sinful union must be maintained until someone dies.
But if it were a 2nd marriage, you would counsel divorce. Even if it wert two Christians in a marriage with good Fruit, you would demand divorce as a show of repentance. So you expect the first marriage to become blessed by God without divorce, even though it began in sin, yet not a 2nd.
Good post! Amen!!
_____________________________
To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/16/2010 4:53:10 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RYNODOG
quote:
Bryan, that is funny, because I don't see where it was taught that marriage was indissolvable for the last 1500 years.
Hey gmcspice,
Any honest study of Church history will show you that the indissolubility of marriage has been preached for nearly 2000 years. Check out the early Church fathers writings. Even Benelchi concedes this.
Well, here you go. The original quotes from the early church 'fathers' in the original Old English they used. Enjoy!
You might ask yourself the question: "Why start here?" There are several good and very valid reasons.
In the discussion over the last three to five years two men have led in the fight against the "TRADITIONAL VIEW" At least within the circle of folks who have been studying in this area.
Olan Hicks and John Edwards have placed emphasis on history and what the Catholic church has blessed us with in doctrine that we "Protestants" seem to follow blindly after.
This author has two observations:
First, None of the Supporters of the Traditional View" bothered to "object". Quite the contrary--silence reigns here.
Second, while both men mention such they present very little evidence to show that they have "wandered" in that neighborhood of history.
So, now you with a big grin from this author are able to join in-IN reading "Old English."
As we begin-- what are we looking for? We are looking for "evidence" PRO OR CON to the traditional view prior to 1554. In the process of examining all of the Evidence--most of this can be found at the local Library. This process also brings to light some very interesting definitions and applications of "fornication" that we somehow don't have with us today....
JUSTIN MARTYR in his first Apology writt'n within 50. yeares
after St. John dy'd, relates a story which "Eusebius" transcribes, that a certain matron of Rome, the wife of a vitious husband, her selfe also formerly vitious, but converted to the faith, and persuading the same to her husband, at lest the amendment of his wicked life, upon his not yeilding to her daily entreaties and persuasions in this behalf, procur'd by law to be divorc't from him.
This was neither for adultery, nor desertion, but as the relation saies, Esteeming it an ungodly thing to be the consort of bed with him, Who against the law of nature and of right sought out voluptuous waies.
Suppose he endeavour'd some unnaturall abuse, the Greek admits that meaning, it cannot yet be call'd adultery; it therefore could be thought worthy of divorce no otherwise then as equivalent, or wors. And, other vicesd will appear in other respects as much divorsive.
Next tis said her friends advis'd her to stay a while; and what reason gave they? Not because they held unlawful what she purpos'd, but because they thought she might longer yet hope his repentance.
She obey'd till the man going to Alexansdria, and from thence reported to grow still more impenitent, not for any adultery or desertions wherof neith can be gather'd.
But, saith the Martyr, and speaks it like one approving, lest she should be partaker of his unrighteouss and ungodly deeds, remaining in wedloc, the communion of bed and board with such a person, she left him by a lawful divorce.
This cannot but give the judgement of the Church in those pure and next to Apostolic times.for how els could the woman have bin permitted, or heer not reprehended; and if a wife mig then doe this without reprooff, a husband certainly might no less, if not more.
TERTULLIAN In the same age writing his 4. book against Marcion witnesses that Christ by his answer to the Pharisees protected the constitution of Moses as his own, and directed the institutuon of the creator, for I alter not his Carthaginian phrase:
He excus'd rather then destroi'd the constitution of Moses; I say he forbidd conditionally, if any one therefore put away that he may marry another so that if he prohibited conditionall then not wholly; and what he forbadd not wholly, he permitted otherwise, where the casue ceases for which he prohibited.
That is when a man makes it not the cause of his putting away, meerely that he may marry again. Christ teaches not contrary to Moses, the justice of divorce hath Christ the asserter: he would not have marriage separat, nor kept with igiminy, permitting then a divorc.
Tertellian guesses that this vehemence of our Saviours sentence was chiefly bent against HEROD.
ORIGEN in the next century testifies to have known certain who had the government of Churches in his time, who permitted som to marry, while yet their former husbands liv'd.
And, excuses the deed, as don not with out cause, through without Scripture, which conforms that cause not to be Adultery.
LACTANTIUS of the age that succeeded speaking of this matter in the 6. of his institutions hath these words. But lest any think he may circumscribe the divine precepts, let this be added, that all misinterpreting and occasion of fraud, or death be remov'd, he commits adultery who marries the divorc't wife, and, besides the crime of adultery, divorces a wife that he may marry another.
To divorce and marry another, and to divorce that he may marry another, are two different things; and imply that Lactantius thought not this place the forbidding of necessary divorce, but such only as proceeded from the wanton desire of a future chois, not from the burden of a present affliction.
About this time the Councel of ELIBERIS in Spain decreed the husband excommunicat, If he kept his wife being an adultress; but if he left her, he might after ten yeares be receav'd into communion, if heretain'd her any while in his house after the adultery known.
The councel of NEOCAESTREA in the year 314. decreed, that if the wife of any LAIC were convicted of adultery, that man could not be admitted into the ministery; if after ordination it were committed, he was to divorce her; if not, he could not hold his ministery.
The councel of NATES condemn'd in 7. years penance the husband that would reconcile with an adultress.
But how proves this that other causes may divorce? It proves thus; there can be but two causes why these councels enjoy'd so strictly the dovorsing of an adultress, either as an offender against God, or against the husband.
In the latter respect they could not impose on him to divorce; for every man is the maister of his own forgiveness; who shall hinder him to pardon the injuries don against himself?
It follows therefore that the divorce of an adultress was commanded by these three councels, as it was a sin against God; and by all consequence they could not but beleeve that other sins as hainous might weill equal justice be the grounds of a divorce.
BASIL in his 73. Rule as CAAMIER numbers it, thus determines, that divorce ought not to be unless for adultery, or the hinderances to a godly life.
EPIPHANIUS no less ancient, writing against Heretics, & therefore should himself be orthodoxal above others, acquaints us in his second book TOM. 1, not that his private persuasion was, but that the whole Church in his time generally thought other causes of divorce "lawful" besides adultery, as comprehended under that name.
If, saith he, a dovorce happ'n for any cuse either fornication or adultery, or any hainous fault, the word of God blames not either the man or wife marrying again, not cutts them off from the congregation, or from life, but beares with the infirmity.
Not that he may keep both wives, but that leaving the former he may be lawfully joy'd to the latte, the holy word, and the holy Church of God commiserates this man, especially, if he be otherwise of good conversation, and live according to God's Law.
AMBROSE on the 16. of Luke, teaches that all wedloc is not Gods joyning and to the 19. of Pro. That a wife is prepard of the Lord as the old Latin translates it, he answers that the septuagint render it:
A wife is fitted by the Lord, and temper'd to a kind of harmony; and where that harmony is there God joyns; where it is not, there dissension reigns, which is not from God, for God is love. This he brings to prove the marrying of Christian with Gentile to be no marriage, and consequently dovorc't without sin.
On the I to the Cor. 7, he grants a woman may leave her husband not for only fornication, But for Apostacy, and inverting nature, though not marry again, but the man may.
Heer are cuases of divorce assign'd other then adultery. And going on he affirms, that the cause of God is greaten then the cause of matrimony; that the reverence of wedloc is not due to him who hates the author thereof; that no matrimony is fomr without devotion to God; that dishonour don to God acquitts the other being deserted from the bond of matrimony; that the faith of marriage is not to be kept with such.
JEROM on the 19. of Matthew explains, that for the cause of fornication, or the suspicion therof a man may freely divorce. Jeroms consent therefore dovorce is free not only for actuall adultery, but for any cuase that my encline a wise man to the just suspicion therof.
AUSTIN also must be remember'd among those who hold that this instance of fornication give equal inference to other faults equally hateful, for wich to divorce: & therefore in his books to Pollentius he disputes that infidelity, as being a greater sin that adultery, ought so much the rather cause a divorce.
And on the sermon on the Mount, under the name of "fornication" will have idolatry, or any harmfull superstion contain'd which are not thought to disturb matrimony so directly as som other obstinacies and dissaffections, more against the daily duties of that cov'nant & IN THE EASTERN TONGUES NOT UNFREQUENTLY CALL'D FORNICATION.
Hence, it is understood, saith he, that not only for bodily fornication, but for that which draws the mind from God's law, and fouly corrupts it, a man may without fault put away his wife, and a wife her husband, because the Lord excepts the cause of fornication, which fornication we are constrain'd to interpret in a general sense.
The councel of AGATHA in the year 506. Can. 25 decreed, that if lay men who divorc't without some great fault, or giving no probable cause, therefore divorc't that they might marry som unlawful person, or som other mans, if before the provinciall Bishops were made acquainted, or judement passt, they presum'd this, excommunication was the penalty.
Whence it follows, that if the cause of divorce were som great offense, or that they gave probable causes for what they did, and did not therefore divorce that they might presume with some unlawful person, or what was another mans, the censure of Church in those Daies did not touch them.
The witnesses here run us up to just around 500 AD. Here, then is the beginning of the assertion of Papal rule over--gasp--Civil authority.
Nevertheless while the Monarchs of Christendome were yet barbarous, and but halfe Christian, the Popes tooke this advantage of their weake superstition, to raise a corpulent law out of the canons and decretals of audacious priests; and presum's also to set this in the front:
That the constitutions of Princes are not above the constitutions of clergy, but beneath them. Using this very instance of divorce as the first prop of their tyranny; by a false consequence drawn from a passage of AMBROSE upon LUKE where hee saith, though Mans law grants it, yet God law prohibits it.
Whence Gregory the Pope writing to Theoctista inferrs the Ecclesiastical Courts cannot be dissolv'd by the Magistrate.
A faire conclusion from a double error. First in saying that the divine law prohibited divorce for what will hee make of Moses: next supposing that it did, how will it follow, that what ever Christ forbids in his Evangelic precepts, should be hal'd into a judicial constraint against the patterne of a divine law.
Yet neither can these{Popes} though so perverse, but acknowledge that the word of Christ under the name of fornication alow putting away for other causes then adultery both from bed and bord, but not from the bond.
Now, we advance to the beginning of the Reformation briefly because this battle is once again open to discussion--sort of by the opposition to the Catholic Church.
[1] Wicklef--began to teach among his cheifest recoveries of truth, that divorce is lawful to the christian to the christian for many other causes equall to adultery.
[2] Luther, allows divorce for obstinate denial of conjugal duty; and that a man may send away a proud Vashti and marry an Ester in her Stead. For out of question, with men that are not barbarous, love and peace, and fitnesse will be yeelded as essential to marriage, as corporal benevolence.
Though I give my body to be burnt, saith St. Paul, and have not charity, it profits me nothing. So thought the body prostitute it selfe to whom the mind afford no other love or peace, but constant malice and vexation, can this bodily benevolence deserv to be call's a marriage between Christians and rational creatures?`
Well, it goes on and on this pulling back and forth between the "Protestants" and the "Catholic Popes." Please note that when you do your own research--Fornication on both sides is given different definitions at different times. However, Fornication is never ever limited to just "Adultery."
Folks, what this author is saying is that the evidence is there--up to 505 AD through Gregory the Pope and especially through the Reformation that easily refutes our traditional view today.
Well, you will not find many traditional folks using any of these historical evidences.
I know, I know, we seem to know so much more than those folks right? We are so far advanced in our studies or should I venture--our opinion IN ORDER THAT the only reason for divorce is Adultery so they the traditional folks can never ever want to see the truth.
There is another reason for taking this space for quoting all of these folks and it has everything in the world with the main context of this book.
And, that is the formula for divorce and how divorce is to be translated.
There only reason is, because marriage they beleeve to be a Sacrament.
THE END! Peace, Love, OUT!
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2010 9:01:12 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2548
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: offline
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quote:
Well, here you go. The original quotes from the early church 'fathers' in the original Old English they used. Enjoy!
The quotes you provided demonstrate that the early church rejected the doctrine taught by those advocating this false MDR doctrine; however, be aware that they have been provided all of these quotes and more in this thread many times before and yet they still continue to blame the early church for this false doctrine.
On a different note (and the reason for my quote above), the early church spoke (and wrote) in Greek and Latin, not English; the early church writings were produced before the English langauge even existed. Additionally, this English translation of their writings represents late middle English, not old English.
_____________________________
אשת־חיל מי ימצא ורחק מפנינים מכרה
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2010 11:33:35 AM
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gmcspice
Posts: 1345
Joined: 12/26/2008
Status: offline
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Wonderful and informative post Pd.
Ditto Ben!
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To have friends, you have to be a friend!
gmcspice4GOD
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RE: Remarriage After Divorce - One Stop Thread - 9/17/2010 3:51:54 PM
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pd57
Posts: 166
Joined: 8/10/2010
Status: offline
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quote:
Olan Hicks and John Edwards have placed emphasis on history and what the Catholic church has blessed us with in doctrine that we "Protestants" seem to follow blindly after.
This author has two observations:
First, None of the Supporters of the Traditional View" bothered to "object". Quite the contrary--silence reigns here.
Second, while both men mention such they present very little evidence to show that they have "wandered" in that neighborhood of history.
So, now you with a big grin from this author are able to join in-IN reading "Old English."
This is what I was referring to ben! The authors of the book in English otherwise we wouldn't know what they said huh?
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