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Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 7:35:48 AM
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JACQUI2911
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I was wondering what sort of criteria you have at your church in regards to dress, piercings, tattoos and immodest dress. Some churches are very casual with young people coming in barefeet, grunge clothing. How do you go about setting standards that are acceptable, particularly with young people in leadership?. As a worship leader, I did not allow girls with inappropriate clothing on the platform
because it was clearly a distraction. It is very difficult because todays fashion is a concern, and young people need guidance. 
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 10:53:43 AM
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GraceyGirl
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I think "grunge" type clothing is a different situation from immodest first of all.
I believe if a body is covered, then what it's covered with shouldn't matter. In our church, jeans are the norm, but in the summer time you see lots of shorts as well. Sneakers, flip flops, etc. We have several people who are into body modification, lots of folks with piercings and tatts, it's a big old mix really.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 11:35:22 AM
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B-Swan
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From: Indiana
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
I believe if a body is covered, then what it's covered with shouldn't matter.
I would go 1 step further to include that it shouldn't be covered with clothes that are so small or tight they show off all your "features" (guys or girls).
The leaders in the church I attend (including myself as a youth group leader) are routinely in tshirts/shorts/sandals in the spring and summer, and usually don't go beyond "business casual' attire on Sunday mornings.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 11:39:25 AM
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his_chosen
Posts: 1180
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Clothing shouldn't matter. Ds2 has pretty much walked away from church. I invited him to join me on Easter. He claimed he didn't have anything to wear. I told him to wear what he had--droopy drawers, black hoodie, black hat and long hair. He was welcomed with open arms. Afterwards, I talked with one of the pastors and I thanked him for accepting ds2 as he is. Not a problem! He knows what we are going through and he was thrilled that ds2 was there!
A couple weeks ago we had a group of Harley Davidson riders. Yep. Dressed in leathers etc. Certainly not what you would expect to see in church! But, they, too were welcomed.
I would much rather see dirty on the outside/clean on the inside than clean on the outside/dirty on the inside.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 11:41:26 AM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3151
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
I think "grunge" type clothing is a different situation from immodest first of all.
I agree.
My church is located downtown. We've had people come in all "levels" of dress, including those who are homeless. It's not fair to have the expectation that everyone wear a certain level of dress, since not everyone has the resources or the inclination to wear the nicest "church clothes." And I'm glad about that ---> it's not weird for me to wear jeans to Sunday School on the mornings that I am with the 2-year-olds during the worship service (which is after Sunday School)... if I choose to do so.
I think if someone's level of dress is concerning, then it should be more about the clothes being a possible sign of the person's need (maybe for food or shelter, maybe for a friend and some encouragement, maybe for some intervention), since what one wears can be a reflection of what's going on inside (like the teenager who starts rebelling and at the same time starts wearing clothes that his/her parents find really weird). But that doesn't mean that the issue is the clothes... one that that church needs to "fix." I would think that the person's spiritual health, physical health, and emotional well being should be more of a concern than "oh, my... he's just too casual" or too sloppy or too <whatever>.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 11:54:28 AM
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EclecticJoy
Posts: 9368
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JACQUI2911
As a worship leader, I did not allow girls with inappropriate clothing on the platform because it was clearly a distraction. It is very difficult because todays fashion is a concern, and young people need guidance.
There is a difference between inappropriate clothing, versus fashion that might not appeal to others' particular tastes.
Inappropriate clothing would be clothing that is immodest in any way.
Strange fashion choices have pretty much always been around, but strange fashion concerns do not always translate into inappropriate or immodest clothing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Elena1030
I think if someone's level of dress is concerning, then it should be more about the clothes being a possible sign of the person's need (maybe for food or shelter, maybe for a friend and some encouragement, maybe for some intervention), since what one wears can be a reflection of what's going on inside (like the teenager who starts rebelling and at the same time starts wearing clothes that his/her parents find really weird). But that doesn't mean that the issue is the clothes... one that that church needs to "fix." I would think that the person's spiritual health, physical health, and emotional well being should be more of a concern than "oh, my... he's just too casual" or too sloppy or too <whatever>. ^^^THIS!
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 12:15:38 PM
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gcsjr
Posts: 536
Joined: 11/23/2008
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quote:
I was wondering what sort of criteria you have at your church in regards to dress, piercings, tattoos and immodest dress. Some churches are very casual with young people coming in barefeet, grunge clothing. How do you go about setting standards that are acceptable, particularly with young people in leadership?. As a worship leader, I did not allow girls with inappropriate clothing on the platform
because it was clearly a distraction. It is very difficult because todays fashion is a concern, and young people need guidance.
I concur with the responses you've gotten so far. We expect people to dress modestly, but the style of their dress is really up to them and it's not unusual to see shorts, t-shirts and flip flops in the summer.
As for allowing inappropriate clothing on the platform, generally anyone who is allowed on the platform to help lead worship or speak would be mature enough Christian to know the difference between what's appropriate and what's not (regardless of their age or the style they choose). Failure to dress appropriately (modestly) for that situation would be indicative of a larger issue in that person's level of maturity.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 1:58:07 PM
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jn1010lf
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Hello JACQUI2911
I am a casual but neet person. I've even worn Levis to church. However they had a crease down each leg. I do not approve of grung type clothing for anyone in leadership positions. This isn't meant to be vulgar but women on stage need to make sure that their bodies don't react too much when they make time with the beat of the music. (Let the reader interpret)
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/19/2010 4:12:06 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 3151
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From: Music City, USA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
Hello JACQUI2911
I am a casual but neet person. I've even worn Levis to church. However they had a crease down each leg. I do not approve of grung type clothing for anyone in leadership positions.
I do agree that someone teaching a Sunday School class or leading worship in some way (be it preaching, singing, playing, praying, reading Scripture, etc.) should be presentable... whatever "presentable" means in that particular church's culture. Communicates "I am prepared; I know what I'm doing" and that he/she cares about the people enough to be prepared and to know what he/she is doing.
{It's a bit different when one is working w/ preschoolers... and you're spending lots of time sitting on the floor with them. They really don't care what clothes you're wearing... as long as you're wearing clothes!}
But... are we talking "Grunge" as in the type of music and fashion that became popular in the 90s? Or are we talking "grungy" in a less specific way?
You can do "Grunge" inspired (like... jeans, T-shirt w/ silk-screened graphics, a plaid shirt over that) w/out looking totally grungy.
Really... depends on the style of one's church. If you get up to lead worship w/ your guitar and you're wearing CCM style stuff but the rest of the leaders on the platform are wearing suits and ties (dressy dresses, for the women), you're likely going to stick out like a sore thumb. Might be better to try to blend in more.
At my church, you're going to see a mixture -- choir is in robes, ministers in suits and ties, guest musicians in whatever they've chosen to wear. I don't think my church particularly pays attention to that stuff. Or else, I've just not heard anyone yak about it lately.
quote:
ORIGINAL: jn1010lf
This isn't meant to be vulgar but women on stage need to make sure that their bodies don't react too much when they make time with the beat of the music. (Let the reader interpret)
I hear ya.
But this is a separate, although related, issue:
* Modesty is not necessarily about grungy clothing or appearance (although, being sloppy can draw unnecessary attention to oneself, which can relate to being immodest -- and that would go for both men and women).
* Movement is more of a modesty thing. And some body parts do become more obvious when one is on stage and moving. So... good point... but still, different from the "grungy" issue.
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"I like to stride, not mince." -- Maggie
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/20/2010 10:49:05 AM
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kernsfamily
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at my church you see "everything"....it's in a very upscale, suburban area, but people come from all over to go to church there.
So, you'll see those wearing their "sunday best" down to "casual" and such....plenty of jeans, shorts...all types of clothes. We do have a Saturday evening church, in which 'casual dress' is emphasized....as we are aware that many people can be "intimidated" be everyone in their "sunday best" on sunday morning...and might be more "comfortable" in the "environment" on Saturday night.
The question I always have when someone simply says "dress modestly"....is that you can have 5 different people, all with 5 different "opinions" as to what dressing modestly is.
Here in Texas...in the summer....for instance, you'll see plenty of women and girls wearing strapless sundresses (very nice dresses, btw)...modest? immodest? some will say yes...
I remember last summer we traveled out to East Texas to go to a concert for my daughter's favorite Christian singers (Keith & Kristyn Getty), and we were going to stay the night out there.
We got were talking with the pastor of the church afterward, and he, of course, invited us to come back the next morning for church. My wife said, "All we brought with us are shorts and T-shirts".
The pastor told her, "If anyone has a problem with you wearing that...then I've got a problem with them!"
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/20/2010 6:56:02 PM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 3349
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GraceyGirl
I think "grunge" type clothing is a different situation from immodest first of all.
I believe if a body is covered, then what it's covered with shouldn't matter. In our church, jeans are the norm, but in the summer time you see lots of shorts as well. Sneakers, flip flops, etc. We have several people who are into body modification, lots of folks with piercings and tatts, it's a big old mix really.
Ditto. The old ladies and men still get all dressed up. But the majority of the congregation wear something between casual and business casual.
As for the modesty issue, I don't ever remember it being an issue in any church I have gone to. I have called out gals who were in the youth group that I ran for wearing very low cut jeans that show off the thong when you bend over....but that had to do with the cut of the jeans and not wearing jeans themselves.
ETA......When I was visiting my husband in Texas we went to a Cowboy church. THAT was fun! But I didn't see any chaps ;-)
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/28/2010 2:42:47 PM
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Core724
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In our church we welcome you as you are. Shorts and a t-shirt? Come on in! Suit and tie? Come on in! We see the church as an ER. Just as in an ER, you cannot choose how they come in. The conviction of the Holy Spirit will take effect over time and you will see changes in God's time. If we want people to hear the Gospel, we need them to feel welcome.
Regarding modesty. This is an interesting side note. I just finished leading an Every Mans Battle study. Many of the men said they want the women to dress more modestly. But something weird happened. Someone else said the modest outfits affect him more than the less-modest ones. You see, our idea of modest may not be the same as the next person. But we need to understand that both styles of dress affect those around them in a similar way. In the end, we came to the conclusion it is a persons own responsibility to take appropriate actions to prevent wandering eyes. I am not condoning skimpy dress, but I wanted to provide a unique view I have received from men in my study.
Thanks for bearing with me.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/28/2010 10:41:49 PM
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IE_2009
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I actually like the idea of people being "natural" on stage vs. wearing what the "adults" would prefer that they wear. The exception would be is if the clothing is sexually immodest. This has always been my approach whenever I've asked someone younger to be "up front." Let THEM be themselves and not cater to those who are concerned about looks and clothes. If the kid is a hippy, I won't ask him to be a yuppy, etc. Let him be himself, a kid who loves God. His love for God will speak louder than any nice threads.
Grunge and tattoos are NOT moral issues. They also are not automatic signs of disrespect or rebellion. They're just the current fashion to many kids, just like jeans, dresses or slacks are to others. If someone is upset about a youthful person being themselves (while loving God and worshipping Him), then I think that the "adult" is looking at the wrong thing. Look at the kid's heart, their love for God and NOT their clothes.
The whole idea about "dressing up" for church is faulty in my opinion. We're to worship and honor God 7 days out of the week, not just one day per week. At the core of it, this "dressing up" is too often something we judge some people by. If a kid doesn't dress up, we automatically think that he's not showing respect, etc. That's not necessarily the case. It's quite possible that this punk-rock kid loves Jesus more than any of us. The last time I checked, Jesus criticized the pharisees for concentrating on the externals vs. on heart matters. So, let's try to focus on other things vs. fashion trends that older folk tend to not understand.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 12:13:43 AM
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suz42
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IT DOESNT MATTER WHAT WE WEAR TO CHURCH, WE GO TO CHURCH TO WORSHIP GODS NAME
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 12:27:51 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 3542
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I teased our music leader last time he wore a tie.
-Dan.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 8:31:13 AM
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Core724
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Regarding tattoos. We have a young staff member who has his upper arm tattooed. It is made up of different components which relate to each step of the Romans Road. So, when someone asks him what his tattoo is, he walks them down the Romans Road. The coolest tattoo/tattoo concept I have ever seen.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 8:54:16 AM
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10SNE1?
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I think we tend to "overspiritualize" a lot on this issue.
Some older folks jump to the conclusion that one is "casual" toward God/church if they are dressing casually for church.
However, many times they are overlooking the shift in work/daily dress which has taken place in their life time. 50 years ago most men were still working in "dirty jobs" and most women were still at home maintaining a home and raising children. Farming, factory work, most manual jobs, cleaning house are all activities which lead to one needing to " get cleaned up" afterwards. Most people's "Sunday best" wasn't so much about dressing for God as it was a reflection of the fact that one didn't wear "work clothes" to non-work public gatherings.
And society in general is just more casual in regards to dress. Young people are not "offended" if you don't get dressed up for their wedding either.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 10:49:59 AM
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aprilshowers12
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quote:
As a worship leader, I did not allow girls with inappropriate clothing on the platform because it was clearly a distraction.
What about boys and young men? This is very one sided and IMHO offensive. I understand that girls dress can be seen as immodest but in our church everyone on the platform is held to the same standard.
My husband, daughter (15), son (14) and daughter's friend (15) are all in the orchestra at church, they all have to adhere to a dress code. If they are not dressed correctly, they do not play that week.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 3:11:47 PM
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sharonjef2007
Posts: 3349
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As long as a person is covered, it does not matter what they wear....AT ALL! shorts and a t-shirt? Great. Sunday best? Sure. What's the big deal? They are there, and that is what matters.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 10:11:37 PM
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GregandJenny
Posts: 480
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
I think we tend to "overspiritualize" a lot on this issue.
Some older folks jump to the conclusion that one is "casual" toward God/church if they are dressing casually for church.
However, many times they are overlooking the shift in work/daily dress which has taken place in their life time. 50 years ago most men were still working in "dirty jobs" and most women were still at home maintaining a home and raising children. Farming, factory work, most manual jobs, cleaning house are all activities which lead to one needing to " get cleaned up" afterwards. Most people's "Sunday best" wasn't so much about dressing for God as it was a reflection of the fact that one didn't wear "work clothes" to non-work public gatherings.
And society in general is just more casual in regards to dress. Young people are not "offended" if you don't get dressed up for their wedding eithe
GOOD Stuff here. great points
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/29/2010 10:35:33 PM
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libertarianbeliever
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Our pastor's usual Sunday attire is a tshirt, jeans, and flip flops. Of all the churches we have been to he has the most solid messages we have ever heard. We have been in stodgy suit churches to "casual". the worst drivel sermons we heard were in one of the formal suit churches. God wants your heart not your wardrobe.
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RE: Are we too casual? - 7/30/2010 12:12:19 AM
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AriaPeaceful
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Everything is changing, isn't it? The spiritual atmosphere seems charged with an urgency and expectancy as we see more and more young people stepping up the the plate for Christ.
I would use the fashion statement dilemma as a great opportunity to help young servants of Christ get to the next level of evangelism and be more effective in ministry.
I might suggest; or for that matter, have a meeting with them and request, they try to imitate the clothing fashion of some of their favorite Christian music artists. That would be a compromise and would benefit everyone involved.
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Psalm 126:5 (NLT)
Those who plant in tears
will harvest with shouts of joy.
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