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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 3:21:32 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 2024
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quote:
The men who brought the adulterous woman to Jesus thought they were confronting her sin just as they has been taught. They knew God's laws. They obeyed God's laws. These were good men who lived good lives. And this woman was caught in the act of adultery. It was not hearsay. It was not a maybe sin. She was caught in the act.
Uh...they were hypocrites...not really good men...Jesus said let the one without sin cast the first stone. The Bible
actually records they were tempting Jesus, so no, they were not good men..so not a good example
Jesus also said to the woman...where are your accusers? when she stated they were gone, He then stated
that he would not condemn her either
HOWEVER
He then stated GO AND SIN NO MORE so He dealt with the sin...He did not 'let it go' or wait for a better time
I am getting a sense of a kind of 'humanizing' of some principals here in the way you wrote out your
example....the scribes and Pharisees were Jesus' enemy for the most part,,certainly not good men
Jesus did not catch the woman in adultery so He was not a witness in any case
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 4:07:03 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
quote:
And this point regarding Jesus' submission to sinners is so very important for us to understand.
I gotta speak up here. I do not agree that Jesus was submissive to sinners. This is not Biblical and I know that
bolt. is the one who posted this first, so I'm not picking on you LL...or really on you, bolt., but I think this is MAJOR wrong.
I hear ya, solarflare. I really do. But understanding this (Jesus' submission to sinners) is truly the key to understanding our submission as well.
If you define submission as 'responding to the need of' (which is the way I understand submission), would you still have a problem with Jesus submitting to sinners?
Jesus responded to the need of sinners by giving His life for them. Jesus submitted to sinners by giving His life for them. Both statements are saying the same thing. And both are true to the word of God as I understand it.
And that is what submission means for me in my life with others. Am I willing to do what is needed to help them? Will I respond to their need in a good and godly way, putting their need ahead of my own?
That's what Jesus did when He submitted to my need. That's what Jesus did when He submitted to your need. And that's what He asks of me to live out in relationships as well.
Does that understanding help? Would that understanding fit into your biblical understanding?
quote:
LL ~
I thought yr example of yr husband's rage and the way you dealt with it was excellent...
quote:
So that is what I did. The Lord knew my husband's need. And the Lord knew that I needed this situation, this sin my husband was dealing with, to TRAIN ME in righteousness. I had to learn to not react, to not respond back in anger, and instead to love and deal gently when my insides sometimes wanted to rage back.
Realizing that God can and does deal with us through the sins of others is a real EYE OPENING experience and one
that I think it takes some time to get to
BTW, I deal with large animal vets cause of my horses and I get what you are saying...horses generally have less
need for emerg than cows do...just an aside here
I wanted to use a real life example because it makes it so much easier to relate to what others are speaking of. Yes, I am a slow and sometimes stubborn learner. So God has had to use some difficult circumstances to train me. But as you well know, meekness is controlled strength. To be meeked (horse talk for human behavior) is learning to walk by the Spirit, not by the flesh. I still have much to learn. 
quote:
Hislittleone
You're right in that it is much often the harder road to walk when holding a spouse accountable. But that is what a helpmeet does. We can't let fear (fear that they won't respond in a good way, fear that it will push them away, etc.) stop us from doing what is right.
In my case, I held my husband accountable and he didn't like it. But eventually it helped bring about a great and lasting change. He is now a completely different man than he used to be and he says I had a large part to play in that. What would have happened if I'd been too afraid to hold him accountable and insist he get rid of certain sins that were destroying him and our marriage? He might still be in the same sad state he was in many years ago.
Sometimes when a wife holds her husband accountable and makes him uncomfortable in his sin it causes him to sort of wake up and realize that something has to change. Sometimes discomfort can be a good thing in the end.
I am glad that you did what the Lord required of you. Sometimes it is confrontation and loving accountability He asks. And sometimes it is bearing their sin and praying and believing. That is why we have to walk closely with the Lord so that we know how to respond. There is no magic formula for each situation. It is about relationship, ours with Him and then with our spouse. It is only by relying on Him to lead us that we will walk by the Spirit and do what is right.
I have lovingly confronted friends, believing friends, and watched as all manner of evil resulted. I knew I was in the will of God. I had prayed for sometimes as long as a year. I went into it with much trepidation because I did not want any of ME in the way. They became vicious. They found fault with me. They blamed. They turned others against me. But I knew I was in the will of God, loving them and doing what was right. Tough? Absolutely. But if it is what He asks of me, I will do it.
When we are truly submitted to Him, submitting to others (even when it means the tough love of confrontation) becomes our life.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 4:22:59 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1294
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
The men who brought the adulterous woman to Jesus thought they were confronting her sin just as they has been taught. They knew God's laws. They obeyed God's laws. These were good men who lived good lives. And this woman was caught in the act of adultery. It was not hearsay. It was not a maybe sin. She was caught in the act.
Uh...they were hypocrites...not really good men...Jesus said let the one without sin cast the first stone. The Bible
actually records they were tempting Jesus, so no, they were not good men..so not a good example
Jesus also said to the woman...where are your accusers? when she stated they were gone, He then stated
that he would not condemn her either
HOWEVER
He then stated GO AND SIN NO MORE so He dealt with the sin...He did not 'let it go' or wait for a better time
I am getting a sense of a kind of 'humanizing' of some principals here in the way you wrote out your
example....the scribes and Pharisees were Jesus' enemy for the most part,,certainly not good men
Jesus did not catch the woman in adultery so He was not a witness in any case
Solarflare,
We know them as hypocrites but that is not perhaps a fair analysis. They were truly good men. Listen to Paul's description of himself in Phil 3:5-6. He says if anyone could put confidence in the flesh, it would be him. circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, A Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.
Would you describe yourself blameless as to the righteousness which is in the Law? I certainly would not describe myself that way. These were good men. They were obedient to the law (as they understood it).
I would not begin to compete with that kind of goodness.
From another thread, MysterySolved said this:quote:
We tolerate people, not sins. The problem is we tolerate sins in ourselves just fine; we make excuses, we make our own sins seem insignificant, but we readily condemn sins in others. As another has pointed out[that was an illustration LL gave], when the woman caught in adultery was brought before Jesus He did not condemn her. Rather He pointed out to those who were condemning her that they were no better off then her, that they were not without sin themselves.
Jesus did not condemn her, neither did He condone her sin. If we would see the truth about sin, see it as the bondage that it is, we would stop condemning and we would stop condoning. That is true for ourselves as well as for others. Jesus set that woman free, that's what the Truth does.
Certainly Jesus dealt with her sin. But it is the way and the how and the why that is so important here. His compassion for this woman caught in sin would not allow these condemning accusations to continue. It is so very hard for us to not use the sin against them. Our flesh often rises up and gets in the way. And ouch that is ugly. But Jesus knows the price of freedom. He gave His all.
I think we are really very close in our understandings, solarflare. Our terminology gets in the way at times. But it really comes down to how we see Jesus and in Him we are one. I do love you and appreciate you here on the forum. LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 5:38:45 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 680
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quote:
Yet Jesus clearly shows us that their confrontation is not of Him. So we need to look and listen.
Hold up LL, Matt 18 doesn't suggest that we confront it says to confront and reprove! Jesus' own words.
Confrontation is NOT an unloving thing to do. It brings the darkness of sin right out into the light.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 5:56:41 PM
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bolt.
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Perhaps the word 'confront' is too strong. Matt 18 says, 'show him his sin' -- which is (in some ways) a confrontation, but it need not be confrontational. Rather, perhaps it should be clear calm communication, definitely with compassion and gentleness (Gal 6:1).
How do we show someone their sin? How many of you think that doing so could properly be described as an act of submission? Why or why not?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 6:31:57 PM
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Faithfilled4life
Posts: 10
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quote:
Mmmm...Submission is yielding (According to Websters: submit, yield, defer, choose to be subject to, consent to abide by someone else's rule or opinion). "I yield" is not the same as "I agree". We can defer to each other without necessarily having the same exact opinion on the matter.
It is yielding, which is a choice. Your opinion may not be the same on all matters, but you believe that he is doing what is in the best interest of your family.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 7:27:47 PM
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Faithfilled4life
Posts: 10
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
quote:
The husband is meant to be the head of the family,
quote:
The husband is the head of his wife (not 'meant to be' - is) (not 'the family' - his wife) as (meaning "in the same manner") God is the head of Christ.quote:
So children don't count? If the husband is the head of the wife and children are to be trained up by their parents and be obedient to them, wouldn't that also make the husband the head of the children and therefore "the family"?
Defining headship is difficult... but every time we think we have a good definition, we must check it against scripture. We must ask, "Is that the way in which Christ and God relate to each other?"
quote:
The best description I ever heard for this is that as a wife when you submit, it means to be in agreement with your husband, you agree with the decisions that he's making (in general, not every single one) and how he's leading the family.
Would it be accurate, then, in your assessment to say: "Jesus must be generally in agreement with the way God the Father is leading the Trinity" -- ? To me, it seems like the best description you have heard fails that test, and therefore that description can not be considered Scripturally sound.quote:
No, that would not be accurate. It was meant only to help define the husband/wife relationship. That the husband is not called to be a dictator, but is to love and honor his wife, and in doing so will not be adverse to her opinions.
The reason I find that inconsistent with Scripture is because my reading of the NT leads me to believe that God the Father and Christ (and the Holy Spirit) are equal in authority, and that none of them can be said to be the leader among them. (This is after the resurrection / ascension, not during the earthly ministry of Jesus.)
quote:
We can't forget that as wives we are help mates
quote:
"Help mate" is an unfortunate word because it implies subservience and followership. Scripturally, wives are the powerful answer to the needs of husbands -- one that helps him, in the sense of 'rescues him' or 'fulfills his need / lack' -- not in the sense of 'serves him'. That is the meaning of the term in Genesis and beyond: both when it refers to a person acting powerfully to help (or rescue) someone else, and when it refers to God acting powerfully to help (or rescue) a person (or people).
I think the term help mate is simply a mate (partner) who helps. I don't see it as subservient. And both husband and wife should have the heart of a servant towards one another and others.
quote:
a wise, godly many utilizes his wife's knowledge, experience, wisdom and discernment.
quote:
A 'wise, godly man' does not use other people, far less his wife. He partners with her and, in partnering forms a unity, submitting himself to her: taking shelter under her strength, and yielding (or sacrificing) himself (and his interests) for her best interests under God. That is the meaning of, "Submit to one another."
Whether you use the word "utilize" or "partner" he benefits from who she is in Christ, and what she knows. A husband is not using his wife if she's better at budgeting and fulfills that role in the family. Neither is a wife using her husband if she needs him to open a jar because she can't. A wise and godly man does indeed realize that he needs help and allows his wife to fulfill her role.
quote:
Because ultimately God holds that man responsible for his family.
Can you tell me which Scripture(s) you are basing that guess on?
From one christian to another I am going to assume that you didn't mean to offend by suggesting that statement was a guess. If that man is not responsible for his family ( held accountable would be better) Then why would got make him the head? Are we not all responsible(held accountable) for everything great or small that God puts in our care?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 9:56:08 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 570
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From: Canada
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quote:
So children don't count? If the husband is the head of the wife and children are to be trained up by their parents and be obedient to them, wouldn't that also make the husband the head of the children and therefore "the family"?
I'm just saying what's in the Bible. No parent (father or mother) is ever called the "head" of a child. That doesn't mean that I don't think parents are in authority over their children... it means that I don't think "head" means authority. Or at least not authority alone. It has something to do with unity. Parents are not unified with their children, therefore the Biblical use of the term "head" does not seem accurate.
quote:
A wise and godly man does indeed realize that he needs help and allows his wife to fulfill her role.
The only issue I have with that description is the implication that it falls to a man to "allow" or not allow her to behave as a person... which she is... so she really does not need to be allowed to fulfill that role.
quote:
If that man is not responsible for his family ( held accountable would be better) Then why would got make him the head?
I don't understand what headship has to do with responsibility. On what Scripture are you basing that connection? Can you make it clear for me? If headship is what is between God the Father and Jesus in the Trinity, then we have to ask is God responsible or accountable for Jesus? That seems off to me.
quote:
Are we not all responsible (held accountable) for everything great or small that God puts in our care?
Yes. God puts children under our care. (And pets. And resources or property.) He holds us responsible for our conduct regarding those responsibilities.
God does not put (competent) adults under the responsible care of another person. He calls husbands to minster to wives, and holds them accountable for that ministry. He calls wives to minster to husbands and holds them accountable for that ministry.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 10:15:46 AM
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Liveloved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
I hear ya, solarflare. I really do. But understanding this (Jesus' submission to sinners) is truly the key to understanding our submission as well.
If you define submission as 'responding to the need of' (which is the way I understand submission), would you still have a problem with Jesus submitting to sinners?
I don't have much time to write anything at the moment, but I do have one request....
Where did you hear this teaching? Did you read somewhere or what?
I have been talking to other people and no one agrees with "Jesus submitted to sinners" and you cannot
change the meaning of the word to suit your (generic you please) understanding.
Does your pastor teach this? My husband is a graduate of a well known and respected Christian university,
his father was in missions and a pastor for years....I know several pastors...no one agrees with this LL.
Still hanging in there (me) but not much time to respond at the moment.....
Other than that, you have yourself a great and fulfilling day...........
Ephesians 5 contains some of the best teaching on submission and the context is how we as children of God are to live/walk. It begins with this thought Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children, and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you, and gave Himself up for us, an offering and sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
Walking/living as Christ walked/lived is to walk in love, sacrificially giving up of ourselves for the good of others. Jesus boldly asks this of us in John 15:12-14, This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends, if you do what I command you.
Ephesians 5 continues with our walking/living in submission to one another in the fear of Christ (v21), v22 commanding wives to be submissive to their own husbands, as to the Lord, and the church being submissive to Christ (v24). And then Paul goes into a lengthier and detailed passage of what submissive love of husbands to their wives looks like (v25-33).
That passage begins with these words, Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. . . Walking/living love means to give yourself up for the need of the other. It is what Jesus did by going to the cross. It is what He asks us to do for one another and here he specifically commands husbands to give themselves up for their wives just as He gave Himself up for us.
I won't go into great detail about this passage but will just summarize it by saying the husbands role is sacrificial (v25), sanctifying (v26), servant (v28-29) love, just as Christ's love for us.
Christ turned headship on its head (so to speak). Men thought headship, authority, was about commanding from above, being the boss (and bossy), and ruling with a rod. Jesus taught that headship is about serving, coming from beneath and lifting up others, and taking the towel (see Luke 22:24-27, John 13:5-20). Headship is not lording over others but living the Christlife (I Peter 5:3), giving yourself sacrificially to Christ and to others.
Submission is not about one commanding authority over another. Submission is about laying down one's life for the needs of another and living love in such a way that one is brought to the throne of grace where they will find the mercy and grace needed. You could say submission is about living merciful love to others. It is what Jesus lived to us. It is what He commands us to live to one another. It is what He commands wives to live to their husbands and He goes into great detail as to how husbands are to live this to their wives.
This is the life of submission, solarflare, that Jesus has taught me. It is not a teaching of man. It does not surprise me that you and others do not understand submission this way. I in no way speak that arrogantly. But the teaching of Jesus, true authority, cuts against the flesh and the way men live. Men only know and understand authority from the top down, ruling, lording, one being over another. Jesus IS authority yet He ruled (and yet rules) in a totally different way. His ruling is sacrificial, sanctifying, servant love. It is such a beautiful authority that one is willing and desires to be ruled in this way. There is no greater love than this. And to know this love is the greatest thing in the world.
BTW, I do know others who know and understand Jesus in this way. Some of the giants of the faith walked/lived and taught this. Their testimony encourages me. But I don't take any one person's word for it. As Paul tells us in I Cor 2, spiritual truth is revealed. The Lord Himself is our teacher and reveals truth to us.
(I understand your time limitations. I enjoy these conversations but they do take time. You have a good day too. We are blessed. )
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 11:22:07 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1294
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quote:
show them their fault
So are you saying this is the principle of Matthew 18? If so, I don't understand Matthew 18 in that way.
I think the men confronting the woman were doing exactly that quote:
show them their fault . Yet how did Jesus respond? He was not in agreement with what they were doing.
The principle of Matthew 18 is restoration, a love for others that is so great that you truly care about their soul prosperity. Sin corrupts our relationships. It corrupts our relationship with the Lord. It corrupts our relationships with others. Love desires to help. So merciful love aids in that process. Galatians 6:1 puts it this way. Brethren, even if a man is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, each one looking to yourself, lest you too be tempted. This passage continues with this thought. Bear one another's burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.
We bear them to God in prayer first. We see and know the destructiveness of sin in our own life. And when we see it in the lives of those we are in loving relationship with, we bear their sin to God in prayer. And sometimes we bear this burden through helping in the restoration process such as speaking with them of the sin and standing with them. This is the law of love that Christ asks us to fulfill.
This is not what the men in John 8 were about. They were not loving this woman. They were showing her fault. And Jesus did not receive this accusation against her. Instead He turned it back on them.
This is why Galatians says 'you who are spiritual'. Dealing with sin in others must be done in the spirit of restoration, healing, and love. That is why Jesus rejected the accusation of those in John 8. There was nothing spiritual about what they were doing. It was men dealing with sin in a carnal way. Jesus' response shows us that there is nothing redemptive or right about that kind of fault finding.
Thoughts/questions?
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 12:39:15 PM
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hnt
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quote:
I think the men confronting the woman were doing exactly that
You and both agree the spirit of the confrontation was sinful. Jesus brought that to light.
quote:
The principle of Matthew 18 is restoration, a love for others that is so great that you truly care about their soul prosperity.
Did Jesus didn't have this in mind at all?
_____________________________
Emotional abuse and Faith
My Mother's Journey with Dementia
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 2:53:04 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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Let me ask ya"ll about this aspect of submission.
When husbands have emotionlly and mentally abuse their wives using sex as the weapon, do we knowingly continue to submit?
My counselor has said that based on 1 Peter 3:1-2 am not to deny my husband his right.
Now this I have a real problem with. I am doing everything I can to be as godly a wife as I can be. However, I KNOW that sex has been his weapon used to punish me, degrade me, wound me for the last 13 years. I KNOW THIS!!
Now didn't the Lord give me a brain to know right from wrong? Hasn't the Lord revealed the intentions of my husband to me? So would the Lord expect me, knowing that my husband does this to me, to comply?
Am I really expected to put myself in harm's way in order to be a godly wife?
This so does not set well with me or even seem right as I understand the Lord.
I know he is a very messed up man and can not live up to the Lord's standards right now. However, I don't feel that I have to accommodate when I know it is a weapon used against me.
So how does submission in this fashion work??????
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 3:13:16 PM
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Elena1030
Posts: 2294
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
Let me ask ya"ll about this aspect of submission.
When husbands have emotionlly and mentally abuse their wives using sex as the weapon, do we knowingly continue to submit?
My counselor has said that based on 1 Peter 3:1-2 am not to deny my husband his right.
Now this I have a real problem with. I am doing everything I can to be as godly a wife as I can be. However, I KNOW that sex has been his weapon used to punish me, degrade me, wound me for the last 13 years. I KNOW THIS!!
Now didn't the Lord give me a brain to know right from wrong? Hasn't the Lord revealed the intentions of my husband to me? So would the Lord expect me, knowing that my husband does this to me, to comply?
Am I really expected to put myself in harm's way in order to be a godly wife?
This so does not set well with me or even seem right as I understand the Lord.
I know he is a very messed up man and can not live up to the Lord's standards right now. However, I don't feel that I have to accommodate when I know it is a weapon used against me.
So how does submission in this fashion work??????
Wow... that's really tough, DD. I soooo hate this for you!!! 
I just cannot imagine how horrible this sort of violation of your very self is... especially when it's been such a long-standing pattern.
I'm wondering.... Is your husband's motive behind each and every sexual advance to punish, degrade, or wound? I mean, as the two of you continue to work on things... I'm just wondering if it would be wise to yield to his desire for sex... when you know that his motives are good... but not when the motives aren't good.
Would it be ok for you to initiate at times? I mean, you'd be submitting to his overall need... even if it's not manifesting itself right at that very second.
Are there other areas of your marriage in which you are working on submitting... and are having success?
Perhaps... as bolt suggested to someone else in a totally different forum folder... you might reframe your definition of success -- and make it more about your overall desire to submit to your husband in his role... and about how you do that in action, with various attempts... no matter what his response/reaction is.
I dunno. I hope I'm not making things worse or putting extra burden on you. I so admire you for just wanting to be the wife God calls you to be... and to honor Him, even if your husband is still in a trap/stronghold (though may be attempting to get out).
_____________________________
"LORD, You light my lamp; my God illuminates my darkness."—Psalm 18:28, HCSB
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 3:24:42 PM
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Hislittleone
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I'm pretty sure that if we aren't supposed to eat with unrepentant sinners that we aren't obligated to have sex with them either (even if we happen to be married to them).
The whole point of Matthew 18 is to make a sinner uncomfortable in order to nudge them towards repentance and a restored fellowship with other believers and with God. Giving an unrepentant man sex will not make him more uncomfortable. It will increase his comfort and possibly decrease his determination to fix what is broken. Make sense?
Personally I don't view my partner as my personal sex slave who should fulfill every need I might have just because he is my husband.  Sex should be a physical expression of the relationship and bond between a married couple. When that bond is broken, especially by sexual infidelity, it needs to be restored before making love is resumed.
I certainly wouldn't expect my husband to jump into bed with me to fulfill my "needs" just after I'd had a long line of affairs. Neither should he expect me to jump back into bed with him to fulfill his "needs" just after he's had a long run with porn. 
You might benefit from seeking counseling elsewhere. Just because someone calls themselves a Christian and has a license doesn't mean they are right 100% of the time.
ETA: And if you view submission as seeking what's best for the other person then it wouldn't be unsubmissive to abstain from sex until your husband has shown himself to be truly repentant and a changed man.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 4:53:26 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1294
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: My inside world
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DeliveredDarling
Let me ask ya"ll about this aspect of submission.
When husbands have emotionlly and mentally abuse their wives using sex as the weapon, do we knowingly continue to submit?
My counselor has said that based on 1 Peter 3:1-2 am not to deny my husband his right.
Now this I have a real problem with. I am doing everything I can to be as godly a wife as I can be. However, I KNOW that sex has been his weapon used to punish me, degrade me, wound me for the last 13 years. I KNOW THIS!!
Now didn't the Lord give me a brain to know right from wrong? Hasn't the Lord revealed the intentions of my husband to me? So would the Lord expect me, knowing that my husband does this to me, to comply?
Am I really expected to put myself in harm's way in order to be a godly wife?
This so does not set well with me or even seem right as I understand the Lord.
I know he is a very messed up man and can not live up to the Lord's standards right now. However, I don't feel that I have to accommodate when I know it is a weapon used against me.
So how does submission in this fashion work??????
DD,
I love ya and know that your heart's desire is to please the Lord and to live as He desires you to live. And it is not easy. It is especially not easy when in situations such as the one with your husband.
But why do you think the Lord asks us to overcome evil with good? Why are we to heap burning coals upon the head of one who has wronged us? Why does love overcome a multitude of sins? Why does He command husbands to love their wives and wives to submit to and respect their husbands? Why did Jesus die for us while we were yet sinners? Why are we to not think lightly of the riches of the Lord's kindness, forbearance and patience which leads us to repentance?
Because He knows us! He knows how very hard it is to live love to someone who has wounded us so deeply. He knows that it takes supernatural strength, His strength, His love, to live out His life to others. We won't do it. Our flesh is too strong. Our flesh wants IT'S way and wars against the Spirit's way.
And so He has given us instruction, after instruction, after instruction. And He has told us we must die to our thoughts and our desires and instead take His thoughts, His desires and let Him live His life in us.
He died for us. He went to the cross for you and me and all, even those who will NEVER repent, NEVER see their sin, NEVER say I need You, Lord.
So when you give yourself to your husband (in the union of your bodies), give yourself to the Lord because that IS what you are doing. You are honoring Jesus. You are loving Him as you show love to your husband.
It is so hard to not regard others as sinners. Right now all you can see or focus on is your husband's sin. That is not the way the Lord views him. He views him as a hurting man who is wounding himself through sin. He wants to set him free.
It is sacrificial love, Jesus love, that set you free. It is sacrificial love that will set your husband free as well.
The Lord is allowing you the privilege of working with Him in this release of your husband from sin's bondage. You are His beloved, DD, and He is growing you more and more into His image as you submit to the Lord and then submit to your husband.
You are not condoning sin. You are not enabling him to sin. Put those thoughts aside. Your husband knows what is sinful. You are not participating in sin. You are being faithful to the One you love, Jesus, and fulfilling your duty as a wife.
You can do it, DD. I know you can. You have to turn this around in your head and see it as doing good, overcoming with good, doing it as unto the Lord, living and walking faithfully, and being the wife the Lord desires you to be.
I'm continuing to believe and pray for you. You have a mighty partner in Jesus, DD. Resurrection power is on your side! Believe. Bless you, LL
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 5:12:02 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 680
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ETA: And if you view submission as seeking what's best for the other person then it wouldn't be unsubmissive to abstain from sex until your husband has shown himself to be truly repentant and a changed man.
I agree with this. Higher good does not mean allowing him to get his jollies without having to sacrifice himself.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/9/2010 5:15:32 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 680
Joined: 8/30/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
You are not condoning sin. You are not enabling him to sin. Put those thoughts aside. Your husband knows what is sinful. You are not participating in sin. You are being faithful to the One you love, Jesus, and fulfilling your duty as a wife.
Engaging is tolerating his sin and in essence saying it is ok for him to continue hurting me and that his sin can remain.
So yes, I am participating in his sin. I do so knowing he is sinning in his mind against me and the Lord.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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