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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2010 1:38:10 PM
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solarflare
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quote:
I'm sorry to be using a 'postmortem' of your abuse as an illustration of what I'm trying to say. I should know better than to be that insensitive.
However, it is not clear to me how a muderous spouse is able to make such an attempt if the sinned-against spouse is not willing to see them, talk to them, or allow them to know where he/she is living. I suppose there are ways to be found. My presumptions are probably doing more harm than good.
Nah...don't worry about it...I'm not hurt or anything...I realize what you were doing...I just don't want
to get bogged down in my past personal life if you know what I mean.
Have you ever been stalked? I did get a restraining order...and then I got some personal protection
of another sort...but let's move on
quote:
All I'm trying to say is that 'submitting' does not mean making nice and giving unlimited second chances to do damage... and that anyone who tells anyone else that it does (which may or may not have happened to you) is using the word incorrectly.
We're on the same page so far.....
quote:
Submission is:
Doing what is nessisary to help a sinning person repent and stop it (including complete separation from someone who is unrepentant in their sin).
Submission is not:
Remaining in a situation where someone habitually sins against you, or re-entering that situation until repentance has borne fruit that you can trust.
So, when I say, "Submit to a sinning spouse." I mean the first thing, not the second thing.
So if you think I am agreeing with anyone past present or future who has used the word 'submit' to mean the second thing, then you are hearing something other than what I am typing
You are using the word submit in a proactive way as opposed to the way it is most often used and you see it
as proactive period and I think this is the best explanation you have given and I agree with what you say,
but I am still stand offish from the word (and I do understand the word in the sense it is meant, not in the
'I am your doormat sense"...LOL...as if I could be that anyway 
My other post I lost, was quite detailed and I don't think I really need to address all of that...I think I understand
better what you mean...although I would word it differently, but again, this is a thread...not real life ...and we
may have concluded agreeably far sooner...but it's been good, I think anyway....
I think their may be some differences in understanding, but the conclusion is the same
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2010 2:29:17 PM
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bolt.
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One of the reasons I feel so strongly about the misuse of the submission principle in Christian life is because in the 'proactive' way, it is such a powerful thing, such an essential thing, such a christlike thing. In many ways it is at the core of what it is to live as a Christian.
And yet people use that very word to make it seem like God requires 'doormat' behaviour -- subordination. They make it seem like they are not allowed to do the very things that 'proactive' submission makes mandatory. It's so circular and clever that I suspect it is genuinely diabolical.
And so people grow frustrated, frightened and 'stand offish' of the word alone that it inhibits them from exploring this whole area of taking shelter under the strength of other people in the Christian community, and being willing to make deep sacrifices in order to try and accomplish something that is good for others.
How to apply submission in marriage is just the smallest sliver of what Christian submission is... and yet on that point, the whole of the teaching can be derailed... and so many marriages poisoned. Grrrrr.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2010 5:00:56 PM
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hnt
Posts: 575
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quote:
However, it is not clear to me how a muderous spouse is able to make such an attempt if the sinned-against spouse is not willing to see them, talk to them, or allow them to know where he/she is living. I suppose there are ways to be found. My presumptions are probably doing more harm than good.
I'm not talking about anyone's life here - just to note!
If a spouse is murderous? I'm not so sure they are safe to see, talk, to allow them to know where you are.
I believe God would wish the person to be safe first and foremost.
Someone of that type of character may not ever be safe, and if they attempt to be so? It would seem to me years of intense counsel. I mean that is LOADED word - murderous!
Its also would be ignorance I suppose if others would encourage a person to contact them. I mean most would be scared to death of such a person, and the trust would be crushed. I mean someone threatened your life, and others want you somehow restore the relationship? They seem to be asking an awful lot - I mean I'm all for happily ever after I guess, but YIKES!
If the person feels drawn to attempt to restore the relationship? That's a whole new ball of wax. It should be the victim's choice, and the murderous one? WELL if they were all that 'reformed' they certainly wouldn't be pushing it. They of all people would know why as well.
_____________________________
Emotional abuse and Faith
My Mother's Journey with Dementia
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2010 8:17:47 AM
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Corinth7
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responding to post-
I think roles depend on......the couple.
some husbands cook and work and wash the dishes and do laundry and try to discpline
And some women study their Bible, make sure their children go to college, comb hair, and do the OVER ALL DETAILED cleaning when they have energy.
They also make sure family goes to church, start Bible Study in the home, and make sure children go to church. etc
Depends on....the couple......
Those roles u may want to set before you get married, that way you know what is expected.
If you want New Jewerly every 3 month, and 300 dollars to get nail and hair and a new dress every month make it known....
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2010 10:25:37 AM
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bolt.
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The trouble is that "submit" is the Scriptural word... and to describe it in other words... I have to use non-scriptural words! (Talk about a 'catch 22') But I'll put some thought into other words that are at least used in Scripture for similar concepts.
_____________________________
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2010 11:39:24 AM
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hnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
The trouble is that "submit" is the Scriptural word... and to describe it in other words... I have to use non-scriptural words! (Talk about a 'catch 22') But I'll put some thought into other words that are at least used in Scripture for similar concepts.
Not always.
Some people that describe other things to that the reader/listener so they can understand - and at the end mention the concept is (insert the word - in this case submit). lol there shouldn't rules or catch 22 for helping others grasp a concept! What is more important? Them understanding or not using some rule about not using non scriptural words?
I think God would like them to understand personally.
_____________________________
Emotional abuse and Faith
My Mother's Journey with Dementia
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2010 5:19:56 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
quote:
ORIGINAL: theprincessbuttercup
quote:
Obviously, we do not subordinate ourselves to people who are trapped by sin. There is no reason to allow ourselves to be controlled by their wish to continue to sin, and their desire to continue to have us handy to sin against
However, this is exactly the implication given from posts at times. That if we just hold hands and love that the person who is abusing or committing adultery or whatever will be magically motivated to stop. We even go so far as to imply that the abuse is the fault of the abused. THIS is wrong.
It is wrong. So, so wrong. That kind of teaching does so much damage. It's sad.
quote:
I'm sorry you went through all that with your ex. It must have been horrible.
I personally don't believe anyone is called to kowtow to another person who is constantly sinning against them to the point they almost end up dead or insane with grief. A lot of people preach submission but what they really mean is "bend over backwards trying to make someone else happy in their sin". Just ignore it and pray.
I have heard this teaching and in my exact circumstance. IT IS WRONG and is not biblical. Many want to use Jesus as the example we are to follow in this teaching. However, the MAIN thing they leave out is that Jesus was SINLESS. He did not submit to the sinners! He BORE their sin upon His body for them!
I can't do that for my husband and we can't do it for others.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2010 6:50:32 PM
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DeliveredDarling
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I have read through the posts and appreciate all of the input to help me clarify what submission means. I had some of the bend over backward thoughts parading and I'm so appreciative that was addressed.
Man is submission a difficult topic! many thoughts and opinions on it. I fully agree that it is definitely a mis-taught and misunderstood teaching.
Solar, i like your thinking and appreciate your biblical approach.
Bolt, I like your thinking too and it is biblical as well!
From my perspective, you two were saying the same things, one in a "clinical" language and the other in laymens terms! 
It was all very good and thank you again.
The Lord really does lay out for us how we are to behave, react or not react to any given circumstance. All we really have to do is open His word and look for the answer.
Love is indeed sometimes tough. Not only for the offender but just as tough for the one offended. 
I have asked the question many times, "how does one submit to a sinning spouse?"
What I gathered from Solar, was you don't. I agree with that. If a spouse is controlled by sexual sin (using that as the example here), he/she is therefore controlled by the enemy. By submitting to that spouse, one is submitting themselves to the directives of the enemy.
I can, however love my husband, continue with my duties (not sexual) and continue living my life whether he sins or not. He will either repent or he won't. Limbo doesn't last forever and I certainly believe that, should a spouse choose not to repent, the Lord will say, "Hand him over."
For his own good, I have no choice but to get out of the way. I will support from the sidelines, but this battle is his own. Well, its really the Lord's but its his until he surrenders the battle.
Bolt had some wise words when she said, " we do what is in their best interest, for their own good". Yes, we do and sometimes those are the hardest to make when it costs the wounded even more. Sad, but very true.
Wounded people aren't real receptive to that until the Lord changes their heart and He's been working on mine.....
Thank you again for all of your input.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2010 6:59:59 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 502
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
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quote:
Solar, i like your thinking and appreciate your biblical approach.
Bolt, I like your thinking too and it is biblical as well!
From my perspective, you two were saying the same things, one in a "clinical" language and the other in laymens terms!
That's kinda what I was thinking.
DD, this is a difficult road to walk but it's much easier when a wife has a good head on her shoulders and is able to discern the twisted teachings that are sometimes preached at her from the actual truth of God's word.
You seem to be headed in the right direction. May God give you wisdom, comfort, and strength in the days to come. (((Hugs)))
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2010 10:38:14 AM
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bolt.
Posts: 570
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quote:
Jesus was SINLESS. He did not submit to the sinners! He BORE their sin upon His body for them!
When Jesus bore the sins of the sinful upon His body... It seems to me that such an act is very much the epitome of His desire and action to do what is right and beneficial for those sinners...
And so, yes, Jesus did submit to sinners: He yielded Himself (made a great personal sacrifice) in order to accomplish something that was of true benefit to them.
Such a submission is our deepest example of the concept, and yet it is so difficult to see it as "submissive" because it is absolutely not subservient.
Therefore when you ask "how does one submit to a sinning spouse?" The answer is that you submit to him by being willing (at great cost to yourself, if necessary) to take the actions that have some chance in resulting in his repentance and restoration... just like Jesus did (but on a smaller scale).
And the actions that are likely to lead to that result? See Matthew 18 -- they are the same actions that are right when any 'brother' sins against you... and they have the same submissive objective of trying to bring him 'round to repentance if possible, using personal distance as both an incentive to repent, and as a protective measure for the sinned-against person.
Subservience has nothing to do with this course of action, and it has nothing to do with the Biblical concept of submitting.
Subservience is not an action that accomplishes something that is of true benefit to a spouse trapped in sin, therefore subservience is absolutely not submissive in that situation.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2010 6:30:48 PM
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Faithfilled4life
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quote:
When Jesus bore the sins of the sinful upon His body... It seems to me that such an act is very much the epitome of His desire and action to do what is right and beneficial for those sinners...
And so, yes, Jesus did submit to sinners: He yielded Himself (made a great personal sacrifice) in order to accomplish something that was of true benefit to them.
Jesus submitted to the Father, not to us sinners, He sacrificed Himself for us. Submission is not a dirty word, just so misunderstood in the body of Christ. The husband is meant to be the head of the family, but is unable to fulfill that role if he is not submitted to Christ. The best description I ever heard for this is that as a wife when you submit, it means to be in agreement with your husband, you agree with the decisions that he's making (in general, not every single one) and how he's leading the family. We can't forget that as wives we are help mates, and a wise, godly many utilizes his wife's knowledge, experience, wisdom and discernment. Because ultimately God holds that man responsible for his family.
We cannot be submitted to the enemy, and a husband who is outside of God's will for his own life is not capable of leading a wife or family. We are to love everyone as Christ loves us, and in this type of situation, intercede on his behalf.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2010 9:36:54 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bolt.
quote:
Jesus was SINLESS. He did not submit to the sinners! He BORE their sin upon His body for them!
When Jesus bore the sins of the sinful upon His body... It seems to me that such an act is very much the epitome of His desire and action to do what is right and beneficial for those sinners...
And so, yes, Jesus did submit to sinners: He yielded Himself (made a great personal sacrifice) in order to accomplish something that was of true benefit to them.
Such a submission is our deepest example of the concept, and yet it is so difficult to see it as "submissive" because it is absolutely not subservient.
Therefore when you ask "how does one submit to a sinning spouse?" The answer is that you submit to him by being willing (at great cost to yourself, if necessary) to take the actions that have some chance in resulting in his repentance and restoration... just like Jesus did (but on a smaller scale).
And the actions that are likely to lead to that result? See Matthew 18 -- they are the same actions that are right when any 'brother' sins against you... and they have the same submissive objective of trying to bring him 'round to repentance if possible, using personal distance as both an incentive to repent, and as a protective measure for the sinned-against person.
Subservience has nothing to do with this course of action, and it has nothing to do with the Biblical concept of submitting.
Subservience is not an action that accomplishes something that is of true benefit to a spouse trapped in sin, therefore subservience is absolutely not submissive in that situation.
Very interesting that you would say this Bolt! I came to this conclusion myself earlier today.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2010 9:38:53 PM
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DeliveredDarling
Posts: 671
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Faithfilled4life
quote:
When Jesus bore the sins of the sinful upon His body... It seems to me that such an act is very much the epitome of His desire and action to do what is right and beneficial for those sinners...
And so, yes, Jesus did submit to sinners: He yielded Himself (made a great personal sacrifice) in order to accomplish something that was of true benefit to them.
Jesus submitted to the Father, not to us sinners, He sacrificed Himself for us. Submission is not a dirty word, just so misunderstood in the body of Christ. The husband is meant to be the head of the family, but is unable to fulfill that role if he is not submitted to Christ. The best description I ever heard for this is that as a wife when you submit, it means to be in agreement with your husband, you agree with the decisions that he's making (in general, not every single one) and how he's leading the family. We can't forget that as wives we are help mates, and a wise, godly many utilizes his wife's knowledge, experience, wisdom and discernment. Because ultimately God holds that man responsible for his family.
We cannot be submitted to the enemy, and a husband who is outside of God's will for his own life is not capable of leading a wife or family. We are to love everyone as Christ loves us, and in this type of situation, intercede on his behalf.
This I fully agree with!
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2010 9:44:54 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
The best description I ever heard for this is that as a wife when you submit, it means to be in agreement with your husband, you agree with the decisions that he's making (in general, not every single one) and how he's leading the family.
Mmmm...Submission is yielding (According to Websters: submit, yield, defer, choose to be subject to, consent to abide by someone else's rule or opinion). "I yield" is not the same as "I agree". We can defer to each other without necessarily having the same exact opinion on the matter.
quote:
We can't forget that as wives we are help mates, and a wise, godly many utilizes his wife's knowledge, experience, wisdom and discernment.
Of course.
_____________________________
 Moo
"Yup, I'm in agreement with Maggie here on all of this" Manda, April 2010
Global Tantrum Crisis
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 9:17:48 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1283
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quote:
bolt.
When Jesus bore the sins of the sinful upon His body... It seems to me that such an act is very much the epitome of His desire and action to do what is right and beneficial for those sinners...
And so, yes, Jesus did submit to sinners: He yielded Himself (made a great personal sacrifice) in order to accomplish something that was of true benefit to them.
Such a submission is our deepest example of the concept, and yet it is so difficult to see it as "submissive" because it is absolutely not subservient.
Therefore when you ask "how does one submit to a sinning spouse?" The answer is that you submit to him by being willing (at great cost to yourself, if necessary) to take the actions that have some chance in resulting in his repentance and restoration... just like Jesus did (but on a smaller scale).
Thank you, bolt., for the excellent teaching you are doing here (on this thread) regarding submission.
And this point regarding Jesus' submission to sinners is so very important for us to understand. This is the response of love. Looking out for our highest good, our need to be saved, led Jesus to give, to yield, to respond to, or to submit to our great need. This is the highest form of submission.
And this is the submission Jesus calls us to as well when He says This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. You are My friends, if you do what I command you. John 15:12-14
Now what does this submission look like, this responding, this yielding in real life? I will give an example from my life to illustrate.
My husband is a large animal veterinarian. He was in a solo practice (meaning he worked alone) and I was his all around helper. I answered the phone, dispensed drugs, kept the books and basically much of the work the office person does in this kind of practice.
He had a truck with a vet box which is basically a mobile vet clinic that he drove to farms. He had regularly scheduled calls to farms for herd health, preventive care, diagnostic work, vaccinations, etc. But he also had to deal with emergencies such as a cow calving, milk fever, mastitis, or a prolapsed uterus to name a few.
He would have a schedule for the day. His herd healths would usually be first thing in the morning. And then other calls would be scheduled.
When emergency calls came in, either the night before or during the night or very early in the morning, his schedule would have to get rearranged. Sometimes these farms were as far as fifty miles apart. He could be on his way to one farm and I would get a call that needed to be responded to and that farm was fifty miles the other direction. Which meant he needed to turn around, head the other way, and basically his whole day's schedule was getting turned upside down.
Now comes the sin. My husband would often fly into a rage. Things had been going smoothly. His day was planned. He had more than enough work to do. And now I had to call him and deliver the news of an emergency that was going to mess with his whole day.
He would be furious. And I was the recipient of his fury. I was the deliverer of the bad news. SIN, pure and simple. I bore the brunt of his fury time after time after time.
Submission. So how does the Lord desire that I submit, respond, give or yield to my husband? My husband is clearly sinning. This is not as he should be. Many wives married to men in stressful occupations such as this choose to not tolerate or submit and instead leave. But for me the question was how does the Lord desire that I respond to my husband?
Love. How do I love my husband and seek his good in the midst of his sinful behavior? For one thing, I learned I could not react to his anger. Even though I was the one the anger was being vented at, it was NOT about me. I had to take myself off the throne of my heart and choose to not be offended. This sin was very much about my husband, a heart condition that the Lord needed to deal with. In general, I am not very good at dealing with sin in others. That is best left to the Lord.
So that is what I did. The Lord knew my husband's need. And the Lord knew that I needed this situation, this sin my husband was dealing with, to TRAIN ME in righteousness. I had to learn to not react, to not respond back in anger, and instead to love and deal gently when my insides sometimes wanted to rage back.
How did I deal with this? I learned slowly. Sometimes I let the machine pick up so that I didn't have to hear or communicate the bad news. Sometimes I took the message from the farmer but then left a message on my husband's machine so that I didn't have to talk to him (and perhaps be yelled at).
And I bore my husband's anger frequently. And I took the need to the Lord. And the Lord changed my husband. The Lord confronted him regarding his problem with anger. And the Lord changed him. He saw the sin that was holding him in bondage. And he allowed the Lord to do a deep work within that set him free.
My part as his wife? Many times it is to just stay out of the Lord's way and let Him deal with my husband. I continue to love. I continue to seek ways of meeting my husband's needs. I respond to him as the Lord would desire. I don't react or retaliate or burn with my own rage. I give it to the Lord. This sin is not against me. It is a battle within my husband. And I want nothing more than for the Lord to win this battle in my husband. Am I going to stand with the Lord? Am I going to lay down my life, what I think is right, how I think my husband should act or treat me, will I get out of the way and let the Lord fight this battle?
That's how I was being trained. I'm still in training. The Lord won this battle for my husband. It is a point of wonderful testimony for him and for me. The Lord is able.
He asks me to believe. I do. Lord, help my unbelief.
_____________________________
Liveloved
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Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 12:57:11 PM
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bolt.
Posts: 570
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From: Canada
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quote:
The husband is meant to be the head of the family,
The husband is the head of his wife (not 'meant to be' - is) (not 'the family' - his wife) as (meaning "in the same manner") God is the head of Christ.
Defining headship is difficult... but every time we think we have a good definition, we must check it against scripture. We must ask, "Is that the way in which Christ and God relate to each other?"
quote:
The best description I ever heard for this is that as a wife when you submit, it means to be in agreement with your husband, you agree with the decisions that he's making (in general, not every single one) and how he's leading the family.
Would it be accurate, then, in your assessment to say: "Jesus must be generally in agreement with the way God the Father is leading the Trinity" -- ? To me, it seems like the best description you have heard fails that test, and therefore that description can not be considered Scripturally sound.
The reason I find that inconsistent with Scripture is because my reading of the NT leads me to believe that God the Father and Christ (and the Holy Spirit) are equal in authority, and that none of them can be said to be the leader among them. (This is after the resurrection / ascension, not during the earthly ministry of Jesus.)
quote:
We can't forget that as wives we are help mates
"Help mate" is an unfortunate word because it implies subservience and followership. Scripturally, wives are the powerful answer to the needs of husbands -- one that helps him, in the sense of 'rescues him' or 'fulfills his need / lack' -- not in the sense of 'serves him'. That is the meaning of the term in Genesis and beyond: both when it refers to a person acting powerfully to help (or rescue) someone else, and when it refers to God acting powerfully to help (or rescue) a person (or people).
quote:
a wise, godly many utilizes his wife's knowledge, experience, wisdom and discernment.
A 'wise, godly man' does not use other people, far less his wife. He partners with her and, in partnering forms a unity, submitting himself to her: taking shelter under her strength, and yielding (or sacrificing) himself (and his interests) for her best interests under God. That is the meaning of, "Submit to one another."
quote:
Because ultimately God holds that man responsible for his family.
Can you tell me which Scripture(s) you are basing that guess on?
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 2:45:22 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 2017
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quote:
And this point regarding Jesus' submission to sinners is so very important for us to understand.
I gotta speak up here. I do not agree that Jesus was submissive to sinners. This is not Biblical and I know that
bolt. is the one who posted this first, so I'm not picking on you LL...or really on you, bolt., but I think this is MAJOR wrong.
quote:
This is the response of love. Looking out for our highest good, our need to be saved, led Jesus to give, to yield, to respond to, or to submit to our great need. This is the highest form of submission
You know, the scriptures teach that Jesus was 'obedient unto death'...NOT submitted unto death., His, was an act of OBEDIENCE
to the Father....not submission.
Have your forgotten that Jesus prayed "not my will, but yours (the Father's) be done?"
Jesus did not submit to our need...I find this convoluted, frankly. We had/have a need all right, but GOD made a way
and that way was a living way in the death of His sinless Son. That SACRIFICE rended the veil in the temple in front
of the holy of holies torn in half....the invitation was given...Whosoever will may come.
You do know that the tabernacle was an earthly picture of the real thing in heaven, right? There are 40 chapters in scripture
devoted to the tabernacle of Moses...more than for any other subject. These chapters are not just overly detailed descriptions
of a big fancy tent in the desert...if you add the chapters on the priesthood and the system of sacrifice put in place by God
for the forgiveness of sins (at that time) you (generic you) should realize that God is saying something of utmost
importance.
What is it He was/is saying? He is saying THIS EARTHLY TABERNACLE IS A PICTURE OF THE TRUE HEAVENLY ONE.
Let me repeat myself, Jesus did not SUBMIT ... He OBEYED the Father....Jesus had a choice and he choose not His will,
but the father's....we are talking about the Godhead here....they are equal....THEREFORE, we are talking about
obedience...to say Jesus submitted to sinners is one of the most incorrect things I have ever heard someone say, IMO.
I know that sounds strong, but an entire doctrine is being twisted and that is the one that involves sacrifice and the
fact that the earthly tabernacle was an ILLUSTRATION...of the one in heaven.
As follows:
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a {mere} copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
In Hebrews 8 +9 we read that the earthly tabernacle was merely a copy of the heavenly one. The service of the earthly one, was a SHADOW of SPIRITUAL things (heavenly)
Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all, since there are those who offer the gifts according to the Law;
who serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly things, just as Moses was warned by God when he was about to erect the tabernacle; for, "SEE," He says, "THAT YOU MAKE all things ACCORDING TO THE PATTERN WHICH WAS SHOWN YOU ON THE MOUNTAIN."
Hebrews 8: 4-5
Jesus WAS/IS the sacrifice whose blood is on the altar of the tabernacle in heaven,. He was/is THE sacrifical lamb..HE was
NOT submitted to sinners....gracious, way back in Genesis God spoke EVEN WAY BACK THEN of what He would do to make
a way for his fallen race to come back to Him.
THAT is a small explanation of what really transpired .... NOT SUBMISSION....Jesus did not submit Himself to an act of
sacrifice ... He did not really want to go....He begged and asked God if there was no other way, and then he submitted
(here the word is used correctly) to GOD and was OBEDIENT even to His death.
If a person cannot see the difference there, I have nothing else to say....I guess it is not a salvic issue. However, it is a
rather large portion of Scripture misunderstood.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 2:55:18 PM
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Hislittleone
Posts: 502
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
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I think one can find many verses to make it seem as if it's ok to not confront an issue within a marriage.
Personally I don't think that you can apply the passage about the woman at the well to situations like this.
quote:
How do most people respond to confrontation? In my experience, the type of confrontation we are talking about does not yield positive results. And instead it turns the situation into an adversarial relationship which is less than beneficial. Often people turn from the one who has confronted. Often people find fault with the one who has confronted. Sometimes the person (in sin) uses the confrontation as another way to justify their sin. Or they stop listening to you altogether. Or they stop being your friend.
You're right in that it is much often the harder road to walk when holding a spouse accountable. But that is what a helpmeet does. We can't let fear (fear that they won't respond in a good way, fear that it will push them away, etc.) stop us from doing what is right.
In my case, I held my husband accountable and he didn't like it. But eventually it helped bring about a great and lasting change. He is now a completely different man than he used to be and he says I had a large part to play in that. What would have happened if I'd been too afraid to hold him accountable and insist he get rid of certain sins that were destroying him and our marriage? He might still be in the same sad state he was in many years ago.
Sometimes when a wife holds her husband accountable and makes him uncomfortable in his sin it causes him to sort of wake up and realize that something has to change. Sometimes discomfort can be a good thing in the end.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
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RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2010 3:07:06 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 2017
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
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quote:
There is no guarantee that praying and believing will actually cause the husband to change. Certainly God hears our prayers and works in mighty ways but sometimes He calls us to act.
I totally agree...I think it depends on what the sin is and the people involved with regards as to how it is handled
Further, not all women will want to pray...I know some women will pray for years even after their husaband has
left them and been unfaithful. Personally, that would not be my choice.
For example, in my case, my ex committed adultery multiple times, was sporadically violent (more so when drunk and
wanting...er companionship...which I didn't want to provide because of the condition he was in which lead to anger
which lead to physical abuse...which lead to me fleeing the home or calling the police...which
lead to...see the escalation?
But sometimes you can't help by ...let's use the word...giving in...I didn't give in when I refused what would be
normal under other circumstances....but drunkeness is a sin too....he was supposed to be a Christian...in this case,
I refused to be just an 'object' for lust to take advantage of so I said no...
so.......again, depends on the sin and the people involved and also their relationship with the Lord
Let me state...WITHOUT EXCEPTION...I do not think ANY woman ANYWHERE should take abuse from their husband
< Message edited by solarflare -- 9/7/2010 3:13:08 PM >
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