|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 12:12:44 PM
|
|
|
Hislittleone
Posts: 503
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano24
HisLittleOne, I'm trying to figure out your beliefs (so I'm not being sarcastic). You say things like, "as long as dad/someone is home," but then you say that they need to do what they need to do (even if that means that both parents have to work outside the home) and that things will vary and people need to find what works for them. I notice that good examples you've given are for homes with one parent staying home...and bad for homes where both parents work outside the home (on this page). So do you believe that the only right thing is for at least one person to stay home full time in every situation?
It just seems like you've contradicted yourself several times, and I can't figure out what you actually believe.
Sorry I haven't been more clear.  I do think that each situation is different and should be looked at on an individual basis.
bolt. said it much more clearly than I did. Her last post (directly above this one) is how I feel about it.
I do think there are a lot of great parents out there who both have to work hard just to make ends meet and that what I mean by you've gotta do what you've gotta do to make ends meet.
Now if two parents are working fulltime so they can take trips, buy nicer clothes, nicer cars, nicer home etc. then I think that's wrong, especially if the kids are in daycare all the time.
IMO at least one parent should be with young kids the majority of the time if it's possible. I don't think daycare is the very best place for young children. If it's just a small amount of time then that's not as bad. If they are staying with a trusted friend or family member then that's better than daycare.
I think the very best situation is for a mom to stay at home with very young babies and if mom wants to work when they are in school then great. But someone should be home when they get out of school (in a best case scenario).
If mom can't stay home with the baby/young children then I think it's perfectly acceptable to have dad stay at home. In some situations that would be the best option. Just depends on the individual couple.
If they both have to work I think it's best to try and find a way to lessen time young children spend with a caregiver/daycare by working part time if possible.
Was that more clear? Like I said, I agree with bolt. so it may be best to ignore what I wrote and just read her post as she said it so clearly... 
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 12:33:17 PM
|
|
|
Hislittleone
Posts: 503
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
but people are going to assume all sorts of nasty things about a family who does things differently then they do.
Maybe some people will but not all. I am a SAHM but I don't automatically assume nasty things about a family where the dad stays at home. And I wouldn't assume things without knowing details because there are all kinds of different circumstances that prevent parents from providing fulltime care for their children.
I just know that it's very important for young children to be with a parent the majority of the time instead of sitting in daycare all day, every day. Even though I think childcare comes more naturally to most women than men especially with very young children, I don't think it has to be the mom who stays home.
Each couple needs to figure out what works best for their family as far as who should work. I don't think it matters that much whether it's the man or woman.
To be fair, your post was not very flattering towards those who want a career or more money. There are many ways of having those and taking good care of your children.
I don't even think it's critical that children be with mom or dad all the time, either. Obviously, I don't like the 50 hours in a daycare scenario, but that's one extreme that I don't often see. I think mom or dad should be the primary caregiver, but there's a gulf in between having one parent be the full time SAH parent and full time daycare, as well.
In my brother's situation, talking in terms of pure money and personality (he makes a lot less and he'd be much more suited to staying home all day with a child), would you suggest that he stop serving in the military to be a SAH dad? Obviously he has other responsibilities, and my SIL really is much happier having a career as well as her family.
I do have strong beliefs about how children should be cared for, especially when they are very young. Maybe that's what's coming across.
I don't think it's very flattering to dump kids in daycare fulltime just so mom and dad can have fulfilling careers and extra money.
You are right that there are ways to have a career and still take care of the children. Like I said in my previous post there are several options like working part time, having the kids stay with a famiy member or good family friend, etc.
But I do think there is a balance when trying to have a fulfilling career and extra money and it should always be in the children's favor. The kids should always come first, not what mom/dad want. Some people can find a good balance and that's great. But a "good balance" isn't where the kids are in daycare 40+ hours each week just so mom and dad can have fulfilling careers and extra money.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 8/24/2010 7:41:51 PM
|
|
|
theprincessbuttercup
Posts: 1107
Joined: 3/23/2010
From: Boo Radley's back yard
Status: offline
|
As far as the thread topic goes, the roles of husbands and wives are well defined in passages such as Ephesians 5 and Proverbs 31. However, none of these passages actually say, "Thou shalt have a job" or "Thous shalt not have a job" with regards to women. It is a prayerful and individual choice. I have worked full time, stayed home full time, and now work part time. Each choice had its challenges, and each choice was prayerfully made. I do not regret any of them. When I stayed home, there were people who gave me "that look" because I wasn't working (like being a SAHM isn't work!). When I worked full time, I got "that look" because my children were obviously grossly neglected and bound to grow up stunted and needing therapy. I think that in both cases the problem wasn't me...it was the women who had nothing better to do than to give me "that look." Personally, I think it would be a real burden to be soooooo much better than everyone around me
_____________________________
Jude 24, 25
after 15 minutes I gave up trying to make this av fit...good grief
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 11:58:16 AM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
LivedLoved:
quote:
You respond to your husband as you do to Jesus
That seems very odd to me. Do you mind clarifying what you meant by it?
I think I understand what she is saying. If not, LL straighten me out.
Regardless of what my husband does or doesn't do, I am still to respond as if Jesus were asking me to do something.
Personally, this goes against my flesh. I can only respond as I would to Jesus if it is a godly request. I can not comply if it is sinful. I know better and I am responsible for the choices I make. The Lord will not hold him responsible for my sin. He will hold him responsible for his sin.
I can't knowingly comply with him to do something that I know is not good for him. That IS NOT loving in any way. That is enabling him in his sin.
Well this is from the other thread started by DD and sent over here by one of the mods......http://forums.christianity.com/Control_vs_submission/m_5011547/mpage_1/tm.htm#5012339
The remark made by LL "You respond to your husband as you do to Jesus"
and then HisLittle One asked what LL meant.....
I'd like to know what that means exactly too...........
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 12:27:28 PM
|
|
|
hnt
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
This is where my confusion comes in. It has always been about his needs. What he needs is Not what is best for him. Yet, I can't say what is best for him because the Lord knows this.
When love is tough, he feels unloved. Not that I can make him feel one way or the other. I have been responsible (according to him) for how he feels for a very long time. In fact, I was the reason he got involved in porn, again according to him. Now, I do know this is a LIE.
Respecting and submitting is a very tough one for me. It is most difficult to submit to a man who is ungodly and refuses to lead. It has been up to me to run this family and be responsible for many years.
We still struggle and will continue to struggle with him stepping up to the plate. My leadership allowed him to operate in his fantasy world. He knew that things would be taken care of so he willingly let me take care of them.
I have stopped doing so many things in order to open his eyes to the reality that we are living in.
As of the other day, the Lord has enabled me to love him without much feeling, if that makes sense. I still do not believe he is doing this willingly. He is an incredible actor and acts out what he hears from the counselors. However, the Lord has kicked up my discernment a few notches and I am able to distinguish the truth from a lie.
My heart is hardened toward him as far as emotions go. I've asked the Lord to soften but realized that it is hard right now for my own protection.
Mutual submission is what we have been learning about in our sessions. That is God's way. My husband does not like submitting to me, because that takes away from his needs.
My needs still go unmet and for the first time, I'm ok with that. The Lord fills my needs and thats even better.
When I read what you mentioned above? Your heart is not hardened towards him in the way we normally hear it preached. The Lord may have lessened them so you could clearly see what you are dealing with, and then the clear path on how to go forward. Discernment works best when motives, attitudes, brokenness, etc are clearly seen.
It sounds like your counsel is trying to show him that everything isn't about him, and giving to another instead of always filling his needs is healthy for a relationship.
Your needs going unmet for right now, and you being okay with it? It could be you are seeing things differently. You see purpose behind it.
Sounds like they are trying to show him that he needs compassion and empathy for others. Being able to place himself in their shoes so to speak, and showing him his acts of selfishness when he doesn't not only damages him, but everyone touched by it.
DD it sounds like you are doing the best you can do for this season in your life. When his root of selfish nature - its all about me type of thing - is shown to you? You are learning new ways of dealing with that, and that at times means not doing what he says he wants. Learning to deal with the response from him when it doesn't get what he wants. Remember just because he responds badly - doesn't mean you did something wrong. There is a reason the Holy Spirit is leading you in this direction,and I bet with time that reason will become more clear.
You both are learning and growing. The speed bumps you speak of? Its part of the growth process!
My prayers are with you both. It does show like both are trying to strive in your own special and unique ways, and the fact he is always willing to do counseling? Goodness be thankful! You are so far ahead in just that one area compared to some that have spouses that refuse.
_____________________________
Emotional abuse and Faith
My Mother's Journey with Dementia
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 12:45:35 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1294
Joined: 1/22/2008
From: My inside world
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Hislittleone
LivedLoved:
quote:
You respond to your husband as you do to Jesus
That seems very odd to me. Do you mind clarifying what you meant by it?
I think I understand what she is saying. If not, LL straighten me out.
Regardless of what my husband does or doesn't do, I am still to respond as if Jesus were asking me to do something.
Personally, this goes against my flesh. I can only respond as I would to Jesus if it is a godly request. I can not comply if it is sinful. I know better and I am responsible for the choices I make. The Lord will not hold him responsible for my sin. He will hold him responsible for his sin.
I can't knowingly comply with him to do something that I know is not good for him. That IS NOT loving in any way. That is enabling him in his sin.
Well this is from the other thread started by DD and sent over here by one of the mods......http://forums.christianity.com/Control_vs_submission/m_5011547/mpage_1/tm.htm#5012339
The remark made by LL "You respond to your husband as you do to Jesus"
and then HisLittle One asked what LL meant.....
I'd like to know what that means exactly too...........
I see that perhaps I need to clarify here.
quote:
"You respond to your husband as you do to Jesus"
Ephesians 6:5-9 says Slaves, be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ;
not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men,
knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
And masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.
And Colossians 3:17 and 22-24 continues the same. And whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, giving thanks through Him to God the Father.
Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
Whatever you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than for men;
knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
So when the Lord tells us in Ephesians 5 (v 21 and v22) to be subject to one another as to the Lord, this means we respond to one another as we would respond to the Lord. As bond servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are to respond this way to all. We do all as unto Him.
I am to respond to my husband this way. I am to respond to my employer this way. I am to respond to my friend this way. I am to respond to my sister or brother this way. I am to respond to my child this way. I am to respond as serving the Lord. With good will render service as to the Lord (Eph 6:7).
Is this not what the Lord has taught you?
_____________________________
Liveloved
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 1:45:21 PM
|
|
|
Hislittleone
Posts: 503
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
So when the Lord tells us in Ephesians 5 (v 21 and v22) to be subject to one another as to the Lord, this means we respond to one another as we would respond to the Lord. As bond servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are to respond this way to all. We do all as unto Him.
I am to respond to my husband this way. I am to respond to my employer this way. I am to respond to my friend this way. I am to respond to my sister or brother this way. I am to respond to my child this way. I am to respond as serving the Lord. With good will render service as to the Lord (Eph 6:7).
I understand and agree with this. But I fail to see how you can apply a passage about slaves and masters towards the husband/wife relationship. 
From what you said in the other thread I thought your were insinuating that she should treat every request from her husband as if it were a request from God Himself.
But from what you've said here, I gather that you mean we are all to put others first. We are to be loving and respectful to all people. And that is what you are encouraging DD to do with her husband.
In DD's case, the most loving and respectful thing she can do is have firm boundaries and hold her husband accountable for his sin.
DD, it sounds like you've got a good perspective on all of this and are using wisdom and discernment. May God do a mighty work in your husband's heart and open his eyes to the Truth.
ETA: I understand what you mean by loving your husband but not having those loving feelings. I went through a period with my husband when I knew that I loved him but didn't have those lovey dovey feelings. I was choosing to love him unconditionally, in spite of the ways he'd sinned against me. But I also knew that I couldn't just pretend like his sin didn't exist. It had to be dealt with. And I think that's where a lot of women get confused about loving their husbands unconditionally. (I'm not saying you're one of them because it's clear you are addressing the issues and holding him accountable.)
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 2:24:26 PM
|
|
|
theprincessbuttercup
Posts: 1107
Joined: 3/23/2010
From: Boo Radley's back yard
Status: offline
|
quote:
But I also knew that I couldn't just pretend like his sin didn't exist. It had to be dealt with. And I think that's where a lot of women get confused about loving their husbands unconditionally.
This is excellent. When you think about it, the most UNloving thing we can to with someone we promised God to love is to do/say nothing while they continue in sin.
_____________________________
Jude 24, 25
after 15 minutes I gave up trying to make this av fit...good grief
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 2:46:16 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
I have seen threads on these forums with regards to dealing with sin in Christians and how to respond
ie: go the person and if they don't listen, take 2 with you etc
We are supposed to go to someone when we have something against them (they have sinned against us)
So why would we think it is OK for a husband/wife to keep on sinning against their husband/wife?
I would think it would be particularly confusing to think we should submit to someone deliberately sinning
against us, supposedly a Christian, and just carry on 'loving' them.
That sounds like spiritual gymnastics to me and I don't think that even makes sense
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 3:16:53 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
quote:
So when the Lord tells us in Ephesians 5 (v 21 and v22) to be subject to one another as to the Lord, this means we respond to one another as we would respond to the Lord. As bond servants of the Lord Jesus Christ, we are to respond this way to all. We do all as unto Him.
I am to respond to my husband this way. I am to respond to my employer this way. I am to respond to my friend this way. I am to respond to my sister or brother this way. I am to respond to my child this way. I am to respond as serving the Lord. With good will render service as to the Lord (Eph 6:7).
Is this not what the Lord has taught you?
Uh...I find this confusing LL. Seriously, I do.
Be subject to one another as to the Lord does not apply cross the board..it applies to Christians ONLY and that means
those living for Christ not word service.
To prove that, being subject to one another involves trust and could even be a matter of life or death.
I do not see this as responding to each other as to the Lord...I think that is really oversimplifying the scripture and
extending it beyond its intended borders. Let's keep it in context....I would never submit to one who is sinning, in sin,
or sinning against me in the sense in which you appear to be explaining your previous statement. I believe that
verse applies to those who live the life...not someone who is needing reprimand....or exposure....people who are living
in sin (I don't mean just sexual) tear believers apart every day because they are not living right and hold positions in
the body of Christ they should not hold because they are trusted with words instead of in the light..according to Scripture.
Geez...where do you think discernment comes in? Only with detection of the demonic?
How about wisdom? Don't we need wisdom to apply passages like that? IMO, it is obvious Paul could not possibly mean
treat everyone as though they were Christ.
So you also write I am to respond to my employer that way you are to be submissive to your employer? in the sense
of one Christian to another? I just really do not think that is the application
Now if I have gone on here about nothing because I misunderstand you, then please enlighten me.
One more thing...in no way, shape or form would I think that a wife whose husband has a porn sphere in his head,
be submissive. That man, that husband, needs help. Honestly? With someone like that? Never. It can't be done.
Now as to personal conduct with regards to the above verse: Absolutely act as though you answered to Christ/God
in other words be honest, truthful etc....
You also wrote you are to respond to your child this way ...do you mean in a submissive manner here too...
I am still somewhat confused as to what exactly you mean and I wrote what I believe/think so you can agree or disagree and
then maybe I will understand what you are thinking/believing
Thanks...I am not trying to be sarcastic or anything else here...I am straightforward I know and sometimes that is taken as
me being, well, aggressive.....
I just wanna know.....
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 4:12:38 PM
|
|
|
hnt
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.
With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men,
knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
Again we need to be clear about the application of the good will that is spoken about here.
Good will would not be enabling sinful behavior by allowing a controlling personality to continue to 'control'. That would be sin, and God would never ask another to go along with sinful behavior.
Addressing the controlling behavior, having boundaries, getting help and support chances are will be needed, and possibility holding the person's feet to the fire. To 'men' that may not be good will, but to God it would be.
Good will should be in form that would be helping, and not hindering personal growth. It would be calling out the old habits of the insecure nature, and showing them ways of seeing their true value in the Lord's eyes. Controlling people will even have an issue allowing God to move in their lifes, and if they claim the faith this needs to be handled.
Allowing this man to continue would be people pleasers just to keep the peace. You allow them to do what controlling natures do? They will get more and more controlling. Why? Where is the incentive to do otherwise? Remember their mindset here!
You can confront sin, and keep boundaries, and do upon others as you speak about.
Applications of this are different depending on the circumstance.
_____________________________
Emotional abuse and Faith
My Mother's Journey with Dementia
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/2/2010 5:44:33 PM
|
|
|
bolt.
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
Yes, I believe LL is correct: Christians have a submitted posture towards all others in Christ, and also towards those in legitimate secular authority over them.
The phrase: "Submit to one another" is the heading phrase for a set of 6 specific paragraphs which funtion to apply it to 3 paired relationships of mutual submission.
Wives sumit to husbands: how?
Husbands sumbit to wives: how?
Children submit to parents: how?
Parents submit to children: how?
Slaves submit to owners: how?
Owners submit to slaves: how?
There are other passages that indicate considering all the bretheren as 'better than ourselves' (Philippians), uphold secular authorities like goverments, laws and emphasise the keeping of comittments (like employment contracts) and heiarchies (such as the military).
Now, the misunderstanding of this practice always comes when people read "submit to..." and think they have read "subordinate yourself to..." The meaning of "submit" is two-fold. First, to take shelter under the power or authority of another person, and second to willingly yeild yourself for the good of that other person.
This does not mean (and never has meant) to always do what the other person tells you, to yeild yourself for the sake of their wishes (which might not be to their good), to keep them happy at cost to yourself, to affirm them in sin, to regard them inherently as your leader or authority, or to allow them to control you (which would not be for anybody's good). << Those things are better discribed (in modern English) by the wording 'subordinate' not 'submit'.
It is entirely possible to submit to everyone a Christian is called to submit to. It is not possible to subordinate yourself to them all... and it would be crazy to try. Submission is a ministry and an act of love, not an abdication of responsibility.
Since we are submitted to all Christians, and yet we approach them regarding sin, and (with the Church) eventually cut them off from fellowship if they refuse to repent... than clearly to do that is an appropreate part of a submitted relationship. If submitting involves 'yeilding myself for the other person's good' -- then it is clearly good for the other person to abandon their sin. We act in full submissive love when we overcome our fear of conflict (an act of yeilding) and choose the actions that are actually going to be good for them.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 10:04:57 AM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
So we submit to one another in sin too?
I just totally disagree.
quote:
Now, the misunderstanding of this practice always comes when people read "submit to..." and think they have read "subordinate yourself to..." The meaning of "submit" is two-fold. First, to take shelter under the power or authority of another person, and second to willingly yeild yourself for the good of that other person.
There is no misunderstanding. I don't read subordinate....we are discussing the ongoing sinful behavior of a spouse in marriage...
and sexual sin at that. Scripture teaches that all other sin is outside the body; we are to resist the devil....however,
scripture says to FLEE from sexual sin
We are talking about the union of 2 people who in God's eyes become one...we are talking about the breaking of all trust
and the betrayal
Sorry, no matter how much the scriptures currently being discussed are stretched, I don't believe we are to treat someone
in sin the same as a brother or sister who is not in sin
This is ongoing blatant and deliberate disregard for the other spouse and I don't buy the 'I can't help it I'm wired that way
excuse either.
Most men (and women) who are indulging in pornography wish to keep their sin hidden. Hidden sin affects everyone in the
body of Christ...this is not walking in the light.....
quote:
Yes, I believe LL is correct: Christians have a submitted posture towards all others in Christ, and also towards those in legitimate secular authority over them.
I disagree...quite strongly. How does the deliberately sinning individual have the mind of Christ? What mind are we submitting
to?
quote:
Since we are submitted to all Christians, and yet we approach them regarding sin, and (with the Church) eventually cut them off from fellowship if they refuse to repent... than clearly to do that is an appropreate part of a submitted relationship. If submitting involves 'yeilding myself for the other person's good' -- then it is clearly good for the other person to abandon their sin. We act in full submissive love when we overcome our fear of conflict (an act of yeilding) and choose the actions that are actually going to be good for them.
Yelding yourself to the other person's good? I'm really not sure what you are saying here...you seem to be backing out of
what you said in the foregoing paragraphs and now discuss putting the person out of fellowship.
You are not submitting to the other person by putting them out of fellowship. They are ALREADY out of fellowship with Christ and other
believers anyway if they don't repent, so the actual turning out of the individual is a physical act of that which has already been
broken. Submit one to another just does not qualify with someone who is already half way out the door and won't repent.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 1:39:49 PM
|
|
|
bolt.
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
So we submit to one another in sin too?
Yes, we submit to people who are sinning. When we properly submit to someone who is trapped by sin, it is our very submission (being willing to make sacrifices for their good) that motivates us to confront them, even to separate ourselves from them, in the hope that they will find their way out from under temptation.
When we understand submission, it's not difficult to see that confrontation and resisting sin is a critical part of submission itself. It is not contrary to submission, and it is not even a side issue. It would be impossible for someone who was willing to totally yield themselves for their spouses good to do anything else in response to an ongoing sin that was destroying them both. It is exactly as serious as you describe, therefore no submitted person could allow it to continue.
Obviously, we do not subordinate ourselves to people who are trapped by sin. There is no reason to allow ourselves to be controlled by their wish to continue to sin, and their desire to continue to have us handy to sin against
quote:
I don't believe we are to treat someone in sin the same as a brother or sister who is not in sin
Of course not!
We seek the good of someone who is in sin in a very different way than we seek the good of someone who is not in consistent unrepentant sin. (Because what is good for them is very different!) We still seek good for both of them, and we are still willing to yield ourselves for that good -- therefore both responses have their foundation in the submissive love that characterizes Christians.
quote:
This is ongoing blatant and deliberate disregard for the other spouse
I don't understand which spouse is being disregarded in calling for submission in this situation: the offended spouse must give up their desire to avoid conflict and seek the good of the spouse trapped by sin. The spouse trapped by sin must repent or risk separation, as the Bible instructs us to do regarding those who will not repent. Who is being disregarded?
quote:
How does the deliberately sinning individual have the mind of Christ? What mind are we submitting
to?
We are not submitting to minds, we are submitting to members -- it is a call regarding the behaviour of those of us who are living in a godly way. It has little to do with the mindset of the recipient.
quote:
Yielding yourself to the other person's good? I'm really not sure what you are saying here...
I know. Every time I've said 'submission' you've thought I said, 'just keep quiet, do what you're told, give up on yourself and try to make him happy.' THAT is not submission, and it is not what I am recommending, and it is not what the Bible calls us to do. It is a common misunderstanding of the word -- a misunderstanding that you appear to share.
I am using the word correctly, but the defintions that people have applied to it in our day and age make the discussion difficult to understand. I apologize for that.
You don't seem to understand that the actual meaning of submission includes being willing to make sacrifices for the good of another person, even if the other person doesn't like it. It doesn't matter if they like it. It matters if it is for their good. If it is for their good, being submitted means that you will do it, no matter how hard it is for you, no matter what it costs you, even if it costs you your very life -- as it cost Jesus.
quote:
you seem to be backing out of what you said in the foregoing paragraphs and now discuss putting the person out of fellowship. You are not submitting to the other person by putting them out of fellowship.
It is not 'backing out' of anything to say that what is good for someone who is trapped in unrepentant ongoing sin is to be put out of fellowship, which might include a marital separation (if the sin is against their spouse). That's straight from the Bible.
If someone is seeking good for a person trapped in sin, then that person is submitted Biblically to the other one. If that good that they are seeking is that they should repent, then separation is a Biblical part of seeking that repentance.
Putting someone out of fellowship (when necessary, and for their good) is an act of submission to them -- an act which seeks their good. Marital separation can also be an act of submission (when it is a nessisary response to sin) because it is an act that seeks their good. It is not an act of subordination (which is the status and behaviour that most people really think about when they hear <and misunderstand> the word submission).
To confront sin and require change (at threat of separation) is insubordinate, but it is not unsubmissive. It is a very brave act that is dead-centre to the truth of a submitted heart.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 2:16:10 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
quote:
Yes, we submit to people who are sinning. When we properly submit to someone who is trapped by sin, it is our very submission (being willing to make sacrifices for their good) that motivates us to confront them, even to separate ourselves from them, in the hope that they will find their way out from under temptation.
When we understand submission, it's not difficult to see that confrontation and resisting sin is a critical part of submission itself. It is not contrary to submission, and it is not even a side issue. It would be impossible for someone who was willing to totally yield themselves for their spouses good to do anything else in response to an ongoing sin that was destroying them both. It is exactly as serious as you describe, therefore no submitted person could allow it to continue.
I do not find any use of the word 'submit' in the sense in which you appear to mean it, in my Vine's (expository dic of NT words, in the
unlikely case you have not heard of it)
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how LL and now you seem to be explaining what it is to submit to a sinful person...
ie one who is willfully and continuing in their sin. Sin of choice...a particular and obvious sin as opposed to what a person
who is striving to live for Chirst might manage to accomplish on any given day
You say 'when we understand submission it's not difficult to see that confrontation and resisting sin is a critical part of submission"
and really, that does not compute IMO. Please, I am not trying to argue here...but it seems to me that there is a desire to
equate forgiveness with submission or perhaps a belief that 'love conquers all' in a sense that even God Himself does not mean it.
Christ's sacrifice is no sacrifice at all if one refuses it and submission to one who is refusing what Christ has done for them,
is basically saying that their particular sin can either not be overcome or is an exception when in reality they would just as
soon keep on with their love of sin or do not want to put to death their sinful nature. Not everyone is delivered from some
besetting sin...many of us have to work at it...which is quite scriptural and which I think, you believe if I have understood prior
posts that you have written.
In readingquote:
It would be impossible for someone who was willing to totally yield themselves for their spouses good to do anything else in response to an ongoing sin that was destroying them both. It is exactly as serious as you describe, therefore no submitted person could allow it to continue it sounds as though you agree with what I state but from another position...that of submission...
so, either this is a case of semantics, or we truly have a different understanding but somehow still arrive at the same conclusion?
I don't know.......
************************************** OK, part 2....please bear with me..........
quote:
We seek the good of someone who is in sin in a very different way than we seek the good of someone who is not in consistent unrepentant sin.
The above I have trouble with. Where in scripture are we told to 'seek the good in someone'? I don't think this is scripturally
correct...have I missed something? This sounds more new-agey to me, frankly, sorry, not trying to offend...
What I DO see in Scripture is that all our righteousness is a filthy rags to God...only Christ is/was sinless and when He was called
good, even HE said "only God is good."
Now I don't want to insult you, you can slap me or something, but I honestly think that that phrase is a bunch of mumbo jumbo.
The ONLY thing that can possibly connect one Christian to another is the Holy Spirit...not our 'goodness' whatever that may
mean exactly. I can find good in just about anyone...believe me, I can. Only God sees the heart and the motive...how can we
then find 'good'?
quote:
We still seek good for both of them, and we are still willing to yield ourselves for that good -- therefore both responses have their foundation in the submissive love that characterizes Christians.
Gee...I just really do not find this principal in Scripture..Not being contrary here, or argumentative, but please supply the
Scripture for the above 'seeking good and yielding ourself for that good IN the person....."
quote:
I don't understand which spouse is being disregarded in calling for submission in this situation: the offended spouse must give up their desire to avoid conflict and seek the good of the spouse trapped by sin. The spouse trapped by sin must repent or risk separation, as the Bible instructs us to do regarding those who will not repent. Who is being disregarded?
Well, you are pivoting from your postion of all is submission and using this as your viewpoint when I did not mean that at all.
Again, the sinning spouse disregards the other spouse..the sin, specifically viewing and interacting with porn in this case, is
deliberate and the person choose to do it. That, is what I meant.
Now you are talking about a desire for conflict (which I have not mentionned at all but I believe others have so that is valid)
that the offended party 'must give up.' I agree. I have no problem with that. The sinning party will defend the offense till
the end...most 'confessions' are either geared to hurt or hide something even worse.
So I agree, again and curiously, with the conclusion.
For the rest of your post, I am going to answer in a separate post after this one...this is getting too long. Thanks
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 2:30:21 PM
|
|
|
Hislittleone
Posts: 503
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
quote:
bolt.:
quote:
We seek the good of someone who is in sin in a very different way than we seek the good of someone who is not in consistent unrepentant sin.
The above I have trouble with. Where in scripture are we told to 'seek the good in someone'? I don't think this is scripturally
correct...have I missed something? This sounds more new-agey to me, frankly, sorry, not trying to offend...
What I DO see in Scripture is that all our righteousness is a filthy rags to God...only Christ is/was sinless and when He was called
good, even HE said "only God is good."
Now I don't want to insult you, you can slap me or something, but I honestly think that that phrase is a bunch of mumbo jumbo.
The ONLY thing that can possibly connect one Christian to another is the Holy Spirit...not our 'goodness' whatever that may
mean exactly. I can find good in just about anyone...believe me, I can. Only God sees the heart and the motive...how can we
then find 'good'?
I'm pretty sure bolt. meant to seek the good OF someone, not the good IN them. Big difference. One means you are looking to the person's best interests and the other means you are trying to find what's good in them as a person.
I might be wrong but I think you two agree more than not.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 2:41:29 PM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
quote:
We are not submitting to minds, we are submitting to members -- it is a call regarding the behaviour of those of us who are living in a godly way. It has little to do with the mindset of the recipient.
OK...well you must be familar with the scripture
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. I Cor. 2:16
I was not ever referring to one mind submitting to another..I was referring to the fact that if we have the mind of
Christ, we will not be indulging in repetitive and ongoing sin. Those who are likeminded, in this case, SUBMITTED, to Christ
are of LIKE mind...and that is what I meant...not some kind of Vulcan mind meld.... (a little humor)
So again, not speaking of the globe between our ears...but the reality of the mind of Christ in a spiritual application
with regards to the cessation of the WILL to sin or desire to sin....understanding that we still do sin (I am not of the opinion
that anyone can actually stop altogether on this earth and that there is a big ole one-stop for that particular discussion)
quote:
I know. Every time I've said 'submission' you've thought I said, 'just keep quiet, do what you're told, give up on yourself and try to make him happy.' THAT is not submission, and it is not what I am recommending, and it is not what the Bible calls us to do. It is a common misunderstanding of the word -- a misunderstanding that you appear to share.
Gently, and with forbearance, no, I do not misunderstand what the word means or its application...so please understand
that I do not see that word (earning its way into the 4 letter category apparently) as you THINK I see it. Perhaps
if you are aware of this, you may see better my postion? Don't know.....
quote:
You don't seem to understand that the actual meaning of submission includes being willing to make sacrifices for the good of another person, even if the other person doesn't like it. It doesn't matter if they like it. It matters if it is for their good. If it is for their good, being submitted means that you will do it, no matter how hard it is for you, no matter what it costs you, even if it costs you your very life -- as it cost Jesus.
Mmmm.....I have made those sacrifices in a first marriage that went on for 10 years...I sacrificed to the point he tried to
kill me. I forgave ad infinitum....he would not stop and started getting very violent...after a doctor advised me that he had
actually paid for female services (he was in hospital and the doctors first thought he had meningitis so he confessed to things
the doctor thought I should know, with a closed eye to patient /doctor confidentiality which, basically, confirmed all I had ever
thought and had prayed and prayed about....
So, not using this as an 'ah, so there' moment, but that is the truth of what I do know about it. With all the frills and chills
left out because they are merely minor planets in the orbit of sin around the sun of his own selfish existence.
Gee, I thought someone would have guessed by now with the fervor that I am writing these things.... 
I made the sacrifices of counselling, separation, meetings with parents and siblings....whatever there was to do, I did it.
As a Christian, I did not believe in divorce and did not want one. I did not think I needed to be dead however, so I divorced him
after 10 years of infidelity and periodic violence....and his constant lying...about everything.
So, I understand what DD has written and what many others have come to these boards with and I usually do not give
advice, although perhaps a little more now than I did before, and I disagree with what LL wrote...but I do believe she is sincere.
quote:
It is not 'backing out' of anything to say that what is good for someone who is trapped in unrepentant ongoing sin is to be put out of fellowship, which might include a marital separation (if the sin is against their spouse). That's straight from the Bible.
You are misunderstanding the last part of my post, but I think its' enough.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 3:05:12 PM
|
|
|
theprincessbuttercup
Posts: 1107
Joined: 3/23/2010
From: Boo Radley's back yard
Status: offline
|
quote:
Obviously, we do not subordinate ourselves to people who are trapped by sin. There is no reason to allow ourselves to be controlled by their wish to continue to sin, and their desire to continue to have us handy to sin against
However, this is exactly the implication given from posts at times. That if we just hold hands and love that the person who is abusing or committing adultery or whatever will be magically motivated to stop. We even go so far as to imply that the abuse is the fault of the abused. THIS is wrong.
_____________________________
Jude 24, 25
after 15 minutes I gave up trying to make this av fit...good grief
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 3:12:33 PM
|
|
|
Hislittleone
Posts: 503
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
I'm pretty sure bolt. meant to seek the good OF someone, not the good IN them. Big difference. One means you are looking to the person's best interests and the other means you are trying to find what's good in them as a person.
I might be wrong but I think you two agree more than not.
Oh thanks HisLittleOne...perhaps you are right and in that case I would agree...in that case, mind you.
Oh I do agree that in conclusion we are closer together than we are apart.
Thanks...really 
I'm sorry you went through all that with your ex. It must have been horrible. 
I personally don't believe anyone is called to kowtow to another person who is constantly sinning against them to the point they almost end up dead or insane with grief. A lot of people preach submission but what they really mean is "bend over backwards trying to make someone else happy in their sin". Just ignore it and pray.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 3:21:19 PM
|
|
|
Hislittleone
Posts: 503
Joined: 7/13/2007
From: The South
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: theprincessbuttercup
quote:
Obviously, we do not subordinate ourselves to people who are trapped by sin. There is no reason to allow ourselves to be controlled by their wish to continue to sin, and their desire to continue to have us handy to sin against
However, this is exactly the implication given from posts at times. That if we just hold hands and love that the person who is abusing or committing adultery or whatever will be magically motivated to stop. We even go so far as to imply that the abuse is the fault of the abused. THIS is wrong.
It is wrong. So, so wrong. That kind of teaching does so much damage. It's sad.
_____________________________
Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2010 5:55:04 PM
|
|
|
bolt.
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
I do not find any use of the word 'submit' in the sense in which you appear to mean it, in my Vine's (expository dic of NT words, in the unlikely case you have not heard of it)
You might want to check Kittel (Theological Dictionary of the NT, in the unlikely case that you have not heard of it). I'll add the quotations from that source to the end of this post.
quote:
I am having a hard time wrapping my head around how LL and now you seem to be explaining what it is to submit to a sinful person...
To submit to a sinful person you seek what is good for them.
What is good for them is obvious: it would be good for them if they were to repent of their sin (including actually stopping doing it). Therefore, submission involves seeking a method by which to pursue that goal.
Coincidentally, the Bible gives us a clear and specific method to pursue that goal: (1) to confront alone, (2) to confront with witnesses, (3) to bring it before the Church, (4) to refuse to have fellowship.
quote:
submission to one who is refusing what Christ has done for them, is basically saying that their particular sin can either not be overcome
No, friend, submission to one who is refusing what Christ has done for them involves seeking their good... what is good for them is obvious. It would be good for them to recieve His work and the forgivenenss of their sin. Therefore, submission involves seeking a method by which to pursue that goal.
quote:
we truly have a different understanding but somehow still arrive at the same conclusion
Yes!!!
You say, "It's not submitting to confront and flee from spousal sin, but nonetheless, it is the right thing to do."
But because I actually understand the meaning of the word 'submitting' I can say, "It is submitting to confront and flee from spousal sin, and we should all be free to do it without women wondering if they are wrong in being 'unsubmissive'."
quote:
Where in scripture are we told to 'seek the good in someone'?
If I said, "Love actively, unconditionally and sacrificailly." Would that be more suited to the kinds of words used in your Christian community? To figgure out what would actually be right, good and beneficial for others, and then to try and do it, even if it costs you something.
This concept is strong in Scripture, though perhaps the wording is not used. Try Eph 5:21 and Php 2:4 for a couple of examples of this concept, though not that actual wording.
quote:
I honestly think that that phrase is a bunch of mumbo jumbo.
Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the 'heads up' that I am not communicating with clarity. I will try to use more clear wording in the future.
quote:
Me: We still seek good for both of them, and we are still willing to yield ourselves for that good -- therefore both responses have their foundation in the submissive love that characterizes Christians.
quote:
You: I just really do not find this principal in Scripture... please supply the Scripture for the above 'seeking good and yielding ourself for that good IN the person
I'm sorry, again for the unclairity. I'm not saying 'look for what is good in or about other people' -- I'm saying, 'contemplate what would do them good, or what would be "good for them"'.
Again, Php 2:4 directs us to be 'looking to the interests of others' -- that's what I am trying to say.
quote:
Now you are talking about a desire for conflict... that the offended party 'must give up.'
Actually, I said that the offended party must be prepared to give up the deisre to avoid conflict and be submissive enough (and therefore brave enough) to persue a course of action that is likely to be good for the offending party.
quote:
I have made those sacrifices in a first marriage that went on for 10 years...I sacrificed to the point he tried to kill me.
You are hearing echoes of the past in what I am typing. What I am saying is that the thing you needed to sacrifice (in order to submit you your husband) was what whatever thing kept you from confronting His sin, bringing it to your Church, and demanding he move out until he came to repentance and regained your trust.
That would have been true submission, because it would have been you being brave enough to try to bring him to repentance -- which would have been GOOD for him. (Becoming a murderer is not good for anybody!)
quote:
I forgave ad infinitum
Yet never demanded accountability. Accountability would have been good for him.
quote:
I made the sacrifices of counselling, separation, meetings with parents and siblings....whatever there was to do, I did it.
Aparently you did not make the sacrifice of getting away from him and staying away from him.
quote:
As a Christian, I did not believe in divorce and did not want one. I did not think I needed to be dead however, so I divorced him after 10 years of infidelity and periodic violence....and his constant lying...about everything.
Since Christ 'believes in' separation from ongoing sin, and divorce as a response to infidelity... I can't quite see what being a Christian has to do with 'not believing in' those things.
--- Post Script --- What Kittel says about "Submitting" --- Reference S. 8:45 ---
"In ὑποτάσσεσθαι <submitting> to state, husband, and master the primary point is recognition of the existing relation of super-ordination [based on the laws in effect in the time and place of writing]… not because slavery [or patriarchy] is ordained by God. Slavery [and patriarchy] is accepted as a social reality which primitive Christianity was not in a position to abolish externally. Among Christians it could be overcome by brotherhood in ἀγάπη, but it could not be set aside legally.
…
ὑποτάσσομαι <submitting> in NT exhortation suggests that the general rule demands readiness to renounce one’s own will for the sake of others, (i.e., ἀγάπη <unconditional love>), and to give precedence to others. This word which belonged originally to the sphere of worldly order is now filled with new content as a term of order.
…
Even the ὑποτάσσεσθαι <submitting> of those who are 'properly' subordinate [according to the law of the land] does not stay the same when done under the control of dependence on the Lord, though externally it is rendered in exactly the same way as by others.
…
The demand now has a specific Christian basis, as the community is subject to Christ. In exhortation the middle [the "submit yourself" tense] embraces … considerate submission to others.
…
The demand for mutual submission [universal two-way submission to one another] among Christians shows especially that ὑποτάσσομαι <submitting> bears a material relation to Christian ταπεινοφροσύνη <humility>. "
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2010 8:28:30 AM
|
|
|
hnt
Posts: 580
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
To submit to a sinful person you seek what is good for them.
What is good for them is obvious: it would be good for them if they were to repent of their sin (including actually stopping doing it). Therefore, submission involves seeking a method by which to pursue that goal.
Coincidentally, the Bible gives us a clear and specific method to pursue that goal: (1) to confront alone, (2) to confront with witnesses, (3) to bring it before the Church, (4) to refuse to have fellowship.
So in a nutshell - you are saying Matt 18.
_____________________________
Emotional abuse and Faith
My Mother's Journey with Dementia
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2010 10:01:41 AM
|
|
|
solarflare
Posts: 2024
Joined: 6/16/2008
From: Earth
Status: offline
|
quote:
You are hearing echoes of the past in what I am typing. What I am saying is that the thing you needed to sacrifice (in order to submit you your husband) was what whatever thing kept you from confronting His sin, bringing it to your Church, and demanding he move out until he came to repentance and regained your trust.
That would have been true submission, because it would have been you being brave enough to try to bring him to repentance -- which would have been GOOD for him. (Becoming a murderer is not good for anybody!)
I am answering this one separately as I think my response needs emphasis because I think you believe,or appear to believe, you know the dynamics of dysfunctional marriages in some sort of all encompassing way, which leads me to think you have either taken
some course, counsel, or have numerous books on the subject
I'm not hearing echoes of the past and I find it presumptious for you to say I am. Please, this is a forum ... you have
limited access to the real me, so let's not presume...ask away, but do not presume and I will try to return the favor
OK,  now that that is off my chest.... (I mean it , but with some humor)
Golly gee whiz ma'am...NOTHING kept me from confronting his sin which was why he wanted to...ahem...put me 6' under
Church? Yes well, a tad hard to do if one is not going to church even though one is a professing Christian and manages to
act like one when there are witnesses around...
Anyway, this is turning into me discussing my past life and you giving advice that is postmortem in its effectiveness and I know
you don't mean to do that but have taken ahold of what I wrote as a way to try and have me understand things from your
point of view and I can only state again that I do understand and I do not agree.
BTW? I was VERY brave...very very very brave...
I did all you state and more....there is no formula...
I'll get back to the rest later on...I did answer, but then managed to erase it...so I have to take the time to do it again. Thanks
< Message edited by solarflare -- 9/4/2010 10:08:07 AM >
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Men/Women roles in the home - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2010 12:09:01 PM
|
|
|
bolt.
Posts: 570
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: Canada
Status: offline
|
quote:
So in a nutshell - you are saying Matt 18.
Yes, in a nutshell, I am saying that Matt 18 is an act of submission, not an act of unsubmission. That it is an act of submission even up to the point of a marital separation and cutting off all contact.
quote:
Anyway, this is turning into me discussing my past life and you giving advice that is postmortem in its effectiveness and I know you don't mean to do that but have taken ahold of what I wrote as a way to try and have me understand things from your point of view and I can only state again that I do understand and I do not agree.
I'm sorry to be using a 'postmortem' of your abuse as an illustration of what I'm trying to say. I should know better than to be that insensitive.
However, it is not clear to me how a muderous spouse is able to make such an attempt if the sinned-against spouse is not willing to see them, talk to them, or allow them to know where he/she is living. I suppose there are ways to be found. My presumptions are probably doing more harm than good.
All I'm trying to say is that 'submitting' does not mean making nice and giving unlimited second chances to do damage... and that anyone who tells anyone else that it does (which may or may not have happened to you) is using the word incorrectly.
I'll try to state this clearly:
Submission is:
Doing what is nessisary to help a sinning person repent and stop it (including complete separation from someone who is unrepentant in their sin).
Submission is not:
Remaining in a situation where someone habitually sins against you, or re-entering that situation until repentance has borne fruit that you can trust.
So, when I say, "Submit to a sinning spouse." I mean the first thing, not the second thing.
So if you think I am agreeing with anyone past present or future who has used the word 'submit' to mean the second thing, then you are hearing something other than what I am typing.
_____________________________
Are you having trouble getting your daily dose of the life changing Word of God?
Let my friend Brian at Daily Audio Bible help you too.
>>audio link<<
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
